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Pharoah's hardened heart

#11epictetus1216(Topic Creator)Posted 3/21/2014 10:26:09 AM
kozlo100 posted...
I used to have a big problem with this passage too, it seems so clear cut.

However, I eventually found out that the phrase is essentially idiomatic to the culture of the time. With rulers or leaders, and particularly omnipotent ones like God, they didn't make a linguistic differentiation between causing something to happen and allowing something to happen.

The act of God permitting Pharaoh to harden his own heart would be described as God hardening his heart. Doesn't make a lot of sense to us in modern English, but that's idioms for you.


Is that an apologist's wishful thinking or an actual fact? It seems to me that it might just be the former in an attempt to get God off the hook. I'd have to see other examples of this idiom to be convinced it's true in this particular case.
#12kozlo100Posted 3/21/2014 10:35:41 AM
Actual fact, to the best of my discernment.

Unfortunately I don't have links to any of the sources anymore. This was several years ago I did this research. But if you want to take my word for it, I did find actual linguistic scholarship that supported the idea. It wasn't just from an apologist site. I'm sure if you google around you'll turn up something.
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#13epictetus1216(Topic Creator)Posted 3/21/2014 10:42:00 AM
I've never doubted your veracity before, so I'll take your word for it. :)
#14kozlo100Posted 3/21/2014 10:49:44 AM
I appreciate the confidence. If you ever do get 'round to googling it though, you might find it interesting. If you're into that sort of thing, anyway.
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Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana.
#15Moorish_IdolPosted 3/21/2014 1:40:43 PM
kozlo100 posted...
It's not dramatically different from the way we use 'God willing...', if you're familiar with that phrase.

Ah okay. That makes sense.
#16Lord_IchmaelPosted 3/21/2014 5:03:02 PM
Hmm, I never heard that before. I thought that passage was among the most damning of God's morality.
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#17GuideToTheDarkPosted 3/21/2014 7:22:16 PM
I'm probably missing something since I don't know anything about ancient, foreign idioms, but allowing the pharoah to harden his heart seems imply he wasn't allowing it before.
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#18Hustle KongPosted 3/21/2014 7:23:32 PM
GuideToTheDark posted...
I'm probably missing something since I don't know anything about ancient, foreign idioms, but allowing the pharoah to harden his heart seems imply he wasn't allowing it before.


How does that follow? If I allow someone to steal from me, that doesn’t mean that prior to that, I wasn’t allowing it. Just wasn’t happening.
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#19GuideToTheDarkPosted 3/21/2014 7:29:53 PM
Then isn't it redundant to mention?

kozlo's "god willing" example would sit just fine with me, but it's used specifically in this instance...Why?
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#20Hustle KongPosted 3/21/2014 7:38:06 PM
Idioms gonna idiom.
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It prays that the clover of luck be always in your mind.