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Pharoah's hardened heart

#21GuideToTheDarkPosted 3/21/2014 7:58:58 PM
That's probably the best the best answer.

Willing to get other explanations, though.
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#22Hustle KongPosted 3/21/2014 8:02:50 PM
I think with idiomatic speech, honestly the best we can sometimes hope for is a “what” rather than a “why”, if that makes sense.
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#23kozlo100Posted 3/21/2014 8:14:52 PM
That is kind of the thing with idioms. The literal meanings of the words and word combinations matter very little.

Biting off more than you can chew rarely involves eating, and a baker's dozen is almost never about pastries.
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#24IvashankoPosted 3/21/2014 8:26:12 PM
I have seen the argument Kozlo is advocating before, in case his word was not enough.

Some phrases are strange. A famous, odd, phrase, for instance, is 'do not hang noodles from my ears!' It is unlikely that anyone here not already familiar with the phrase will know A) what language it is from (though the guess will not be difficult), and B) what it means.
#25KiyomasaPosted 3/22/2014 12:43:51 PM
Is this a matter of language, or is it that ancient people understood implicitly that passively allowing something to occur, and actively doing it with an action, are really just the same thing if the result is the same? The accountability is the same.

My interpretation is that God wanted the full force of Egypt to be arrayed against the Jewish exodus, so that the power of God would be undeniable. It wouldn't mean the same thing if Pharaoh was moved to an act of compassion--it would look like he freed the slaves, not God.
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ALL CREATURE WILL DIE AND ALL THE THINGS WILL BE BROKEN. THAT'S THE LAW OF SAMURAI.
#26KiyomasaPosted 3/22/2014 12:52:24 PM
I personally think it's not an idiom at all, and he hardened Pharaoh's heart directly, just like the passage says. That Pharaoh then goes on to harden his own heart in later passages, implies to me that it doesn't even make sense to make a distinction between what God does and what a person does when God is constraining their free will.
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ALL CREATURE WILL DIE AND ALL THE THINGS WILL BE BROKEN. THAT'S THE LAW OF SAMURAI.
#27CS_Goodman_Posted 3/22/2014 9:53:31 PM
epictetus1216 posted...
Is that an apologist's wishful thinking or an actual fact? It seems to me that it might just be the former in an attempt to get God off the hook. I'd have to see other examples of this idiom to be convinced it's true in this particular case.


Pointing out the *actual* cultural context of literature is not wishful thinking. It's an historical commonsense.

Wishful thinking is contemporary English.
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#28serpentslayerPosted 3/22/2014 11:31:42 PM
Literally every Bible translation is in opposition to the "allow" idea, so what we have here are GameFAQs users who claim greater knowledge than all professional Biblical translators.
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#29CS_Goodman_Posted 3/23/2014 1:16:22 AM
The sense of expression is, approximately, "God angered Pharaoh." In literal course of events, God "made" Pharaoh angry via Moses' persistence of cause.

And, whatever "allow" means, per Exodus Pharaoh's hardening of heart is clearly in accord to Pharaoh's will.
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#30OzymandiasIVPosted 3/23/2014 2:02:47 AM
kozlo100 posted...
I used to have a big problem with this passage too, it seems so clear cut.

However, I eventually found out that the phrase is essentially idiomatic to the culture of the time. With rulers or leaders, and particularly omnipotent ones like God, they didn't make a linguistic differentiation between causing something to happen and allowing something to happen.

The act of God permitting Pharaoh to harden his own heart would be described as God hardening his heart. Doesn't make a lot of sense to us in modern English, but that's idioms for you.


Or so they say. There's always an answer, and if they can't find one, it's due to a mistranslation or misinterpretation, and the correct translation is always one that appeases people by today's standards. I grant that mistranslations likely happen, but it's such a go-to excuse for the big problems that can't be solved in any other way that I've become wary any time someone claims it to be the case.
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