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Sequel: What does The Christian Bible actually say about same-sex relationships?

#1MorgasaurusPosted 4/18/2014 10:28:08 AM
Alright time for the sequel because why not? Link to the original topic in case anyone is interested:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/263-religion/68439258

I have truly come to know and believe with certainty that same-sex relationships are not condemned by The Lord. I have my reasons, and you can read the last topic if you're interested.

If you would like to read an example of an argument demonstrating why the clobber verses in English Bibles are mistranslated, read this:

http://www.stjohnsmcc.org/new/BibleAbuse/index.php

Another point to be made is associated with "The Two Commandments" outlined by Jesus in the verse Matthew 22.

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

The bold part implies that for any "line-item" condemnation present in The Bible, there must be a logically consistent argument demonstrating why the behavior is a violation of "The Two Commandments." If no such argument (theoretically) exists, then the condemnation must have emerged from a mistranslation (or something else).

Admittedly the failure of human beings to come up with such an argument does not imply one does not exist. However, I have never heard one that holds water. Now I'm going to answer the last post made in the previous topic.

Dathrowed1 posted...
I would just think you would have some knowledge on translations before you were critical of them. You know to prove you weren't setting yourself up for biases


The premise of what you just said is equating my personal belief to a bias. Yes that is the case, but bias has a negative connotation. I truly know and believe for myself that pursuing a same-sex relationship is not sinful. From my point of view I have certainty the verses are mistranslated, and the title of this board implies that my beliefs are not entirely irrelevant to the conversation.

Also there's a huge difference between "having some knowledge on translations" and "being fluent in Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew." Yes I am drawing much of my knowledge on translations from other Christian sources.

Or it just implies that two people of the same sex are having sex. You're playing a semantics game


...and you're losing the game. The word homosexual implies a state of mind. It implies the presence of passions for the same sex. Period.
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"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? ..."
- Matthew 16:26
#2Morgasaurus(Topic Creator)Posted 4/18/2014 10:32:11 AM
Some terminology:

Traditionalists (Traditional Christians): Individuals of the Christian faith who believe same-sex relationships are condemned by The Bible since The Bible condemns individuals who engage in sexual behavior with those of the same gender.

Reformists (Reform Christians): Individuals of the Christian faith who believe same-sex relationships are not condemned by The Bible.

Now, there is another tangential but intimately related point to the main topic: Is the treatment of LGBT persons by traditionalists consistent with Scripture?

Consider the possibility that two gay Christians believe they should not have sex because the sexual act is forbidden by Scripture. However, they do show affection towards one another through cuddling, etc. Does such a couple deserve to be ousted from congregations, Christian-based organizations and charities? Does such a couple deserve to be denied positions of ministry?
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"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? ..."
- Matthew 16:26
#3Dathrowed1Posted 4/18/2014 10:51:17 AM
The premise of what you just said is equating my personal belief to a bias. Yes that is the case, but bias has a negative connotation. I truly know and believe for myself that pursuing a same-sex relationship is not sinful. From my point of view I have certainty the verses are mistranslated, and the title of this board implies that my beliefs are not entirely irrelevant to the conversation.

Also there's a huge difference between "having some knowledge on translations" and "being fluent in Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew." Yes I am drawing much of my knowledge on translations from other Christian sources.


It goes back to what I asked earlier. What is an accurate translation?

...and you're losing the game. The word homosexual implies a state of mind. It implies the presence of passions for the same sex. Period.


It can also refer to practices. It's more broad than what you believe. That is unless you can prove that this is actually conditional like you believe.
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#4the_hedonistPosted 4/18/2014 11:35:51 AM
Note: I have not read the entire previous topic, but I went far back enough to make this point, I think.

The word homosexual does not strictly refer to orientation. It has several denotations and connotations. It can either mean orientation or behavior. Sources:

1. Dictionary.com defines homosexuality as "sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex."
2. Wikipedia states that homosexuality "is romantic attraction, sexual attraction or sexual behavior between members of the same sex or gender." Interestingly, it also states that "some recommend completely avoiding usage of homosexual as it has a negative, clinical history and because the word only refers to one's sexual behavior (as opposed to romantic feelings) and thus it has a negative connotation."

It should also be clearly noted that the Bible focuses very very little on condemning a person's orientation toward sin (as we all have an orientation toward sin). When talking about a person's sin, the main focus of the Bible is on a person's specific actions and thoughts; i.e. their behavior.
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Resurgam.
#5mortal_snowPosted 4/18/2014 1:24:42 PM
I've always looked at this from a more outside-the-box approach. Rather than simply looking at the verses in Romans, Corinthians, and Leviticus, I ask myself "did God ever intend for two people of the same sex to be together and make love together, etc.?" Some of the instances I look to include God giving Adam a female helper in order to not be alone and to multiply, how Jesus said lusting specifically after a woman was wrong, and how Proverbs says he who has found a wife has found a good thing. Now, none of that is the end-all be-all answer to the question of if homosexuality is a sin, but I think it's very important to observe the context of God's heart and intent for people. I feel like there could be a case that He never intended for two people of the same sex together based on some analytic thinking about the overall picture I've done, but of course I may have missed some things. I do think just looking at the few verses that specifically mention something homosexual-related doesn't just do the trick on answering the question.
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#6mortal_snowPosted 4/18/2014 1:27:22 PM
the_hedonist posted...
Note: I have not read the entire previous topic, but I went far back enough to make this point, I think.

The word homosexual does not strictly refer to orientation. It has several denotations and connotations. It can either mean orientation or behavior. Sources:

1. Dictionary.com defines homosexuality as "sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex."
2. Wikipedia states that homosexuality "is romantic attraction, sexual attraction or sexual behavior between members of the same sex or gender." Interestingly, it also states that "some recommend completely avoiding usage of homosexual as it has a negative, clinical history and because the word only refers to one's sexual behavior (as opposed to romantic feelings) and thus it has a negative connotation."

It should also be clearly noted that the Bible focuses very very little on condemning a person's orientation toward sin (as we all have an orientation toward sin). When talking about a person's sin, the main focus of the Bible is on a person's specific actions and thoughts; i.e. their behavior.


This is a good post. One thing that is certain is that men lusting after men and women lusting women is a sin (as in, they are doing an action of lust, not just merely being inclined to be attracted) according to the Bible, even if two men and women being together is not.
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Go Braves, Dawgs, and Falcons!
#7Polish_CrusaderPosted 4/18/2014 1:49:04 PM(edited)
It seems like your only argument is that all the verses against homosexuality are mistranslated. That is a very weak argument because the bible has been around for a very long time and the consistency is extremely close and similar from old versions compared to todays versions.

Additionally, this train of thought creates a circular logic point for the topic creator. Because any verse we bring up he just says it is a wrong translation and refuses to accept whats right infront of his face.

No point, if he refuses to believe what the Bible says, that is his (morgasaurus) problem, not ours as christians. Not the bibles problem either.
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"Being a Christian isn't for sissies.It takes a real man to live for God If you really want to live right these days, you gotta be tough."-Johnny Cash
#8Morgasaurus(Topic Creator)Posted 4/18/2014 2:42:05 PM
the_hedonist posted...
The word homosexual does not strictly refer to orientation. It has several denotations and connotations. It can either mean orientation or behavior. Sources:
...
It should also be clearly noted that the Bible focuses very very little on condemning a person's orientation toward sin (as we all have an orientation toward sin). When talking about a person's sin, the main focus of the Bible is on a person's specific actions and thoughts; i.e. their behavior.

If you're using that definition then you have to accept two things:

1) The phrase "homosexual intercourse" is ambiguous at best.
2) Replacing "arsenokoitai" with "homosexual partner" is categorically false because "arsenoskoitai" is specific to men while "homosexual partner" includes both men and women.

Consider the last thing you said. Assume for a moment that The Bible is supposed to condemn the act of same-sex intercourse. Then why use a word that could mean either the orientation or the action when you can just use a phrase that says nothing about the orientation?

Dathrowed1 posted...
It goes back to what I asked earlier. What is an accurate translation?

I already linked you a source that explains very well how all of the clobber verses would be better translated especially avoiding using the word "homosexual" anywhere. I also went over them all extensively in the last topic.

mortal_snow posted...
I've always looked at this from a more outside-the-box approach. Rather than simply looking at the verses in Romans, Corinthians, and Leviticus, I ask myself "did God ever intend for two people of the same sex to be together and make love together, etc.?" Some of the instances I look to include God giving Adam a female helper in order to not be alone and to multiply ...,

The argument that God intended for all couples to be heterosexual because of the Genesis story does not hold water precisely because if you are going to have a Creation story where the couple is able to multiply, you couldn't possibly have a same-sex couple. As soon as there are more than two people in the world, that argument falls flat on its face.

I could just as easily make an argument that gay Christians emerged to offer a stable family structure for unwanted children through adoption. Where many see perversion, I see providence. If at some point in the distant future I wish to have a family, I could not see myself using any other method besides adoption.

The truth is that we cannot possibly comprehend what God actually intended. Whether God intended for gay Christians to be celibate or pursue relationships, Genesis happened and couldn't have happened any other way. Thus, the fact that the Genesis story involves a heterosexual couple proves nothing.

Given all the things Jesus said, you still have to make an unjustified leap to think that He meant that only heterosexual couples are righteous unless you include a clobber verse to make the leap.

Polish_Crusader posted...
It seems like your only argument is that all the verses against homosexuality are mistranslated. That is a very weak argument because the bible has been around for a very long time and the consistency is extremely close and similar from old versions compared to todays versions.
...

It would be a weak argument if I hadn't just supported it extensively in a 500 page topic including citing multiple Christian sources one of which I included here. You're just restating the traditional viewpoint without making any further effort.
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"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? ..."
- Matthew 16:26
#9Morgasaurus(Topic Creator)Posted 4/18/2014 2:48:46 PM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
#10mortal_snowPosted 4/18/2014 3:03:00 PM
Why wouldn't he have created multiple men and women from the beginning then? Just because He started with only one man and woman doesn't mean that's irrelevant. The New Testament that a husband must also love his wife just like Christ loved the church. Christ loving the church is a model for a man taking care of his bride. There's no mention of a husband and a husband or wife and wife together. And how is it making an unjustified leap to say that Jesus was only thinking of heterosexual relationships? Every time marriage or a union is mentioned anywhere in the Bible, it's heterosexual. I'm not saying I have all the answers, but what I am saying is it's not unreasonable to conclude that the Bible doesn't approve of homosexuality.
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Jesus lives!
Go Braves, Dawgs, and Falcons!