Geek Eternal

#131Entity13(Topic Creator)Posted 8/20/2014 11:37:17 AMmessage detail
Batman Eternal #20 this week, and a lot has happened. The last couple pages of this week's issue even show Steph suiting up for the first time. Yeah, she doesn't look so much like the happy-go-lucky heroine we're used to, but it's still only her first appearance in New 52 as the Spoiler, and she has plenty to be angry about.

Also, seeing Jason and Barb smile while hugging one another is . . . interesting.
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#132CynicalZealotPosted 8/20/2014 1:40:21 PMmessage detail
Entity13 posted...
Also, seeing Jason and Barb smile while hugging one another is . . . interesting.

Thinking on it, I don't really recall them ever having all that much interaction in the past. Jason's main time in the spotlight was only about five years in the middle of the 80's (post-Crisis), at a time when Barbara really wasn't around all that much (and the last two years of which were after she'd been shot, when she really wasn't doing much of anything at all other than learning how to poop in bedpans). By the time she came back as Oracle, he was already dead (or, well, "mostly dead", anyway, via Death in the Family).

After he came back as Red Hood, they never really had much chance to interact, even during Battle for the Cowl. If anything, he's just about the only Robin Batman's ever had that Barbara DIDN'T establish some sort of relationship with. Hell, Barbara's got more of a connection to Cassandra Cain, who has tenuous relationships at best with the rest of the Bat-family.

About the only thing Jason and Barbara ever had in common was getting massively screwed over by the Joker, though in both cases that's been moderately retconned away, so they don't even really have that all that much any more.

And also, they're both redheads, if you believe Grant Morrison, but no one ever should because he is insane, and that premise has changed like a dozen times already anyway.

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"This calls for a particularly subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence."
--- Vyvyan, The Young Ones
#133SoBePosted 8/20/2014 3:09:27 PMmessage detail
And my point was that that's not the case, because it implies there is actually good for the flaws to obscure. Which there isn't.

This is not a case of missing the forest for the trees. This is a case of looking for trees in the middle of the Sahara. Then getting mad at people for telling you there aren't any trees. And that, if you want trees, there are probably hundreds of better places you could be looking.


:sigh: You are hopeless PO. Utterly hopeless.

Except I in no way admitted to that. I do not acknowledge that there are positives that are being obscured by the negatives, I am explicitly saying there are no positives that exist to be obscured. Which is a qualitatively different statement.

And I am explicitly saying you are wrong.

The fact that, even in the last few posts, you haven't really mentioned a single positive to counter my suggestion that there are no positives heavily underlines that fact. You're basically being forced into a "NUH-UH! You're just blind to the truth!" style argument because even you have to admit, on some subconscious level, that you can't actually name a single thing about the game that makes it stand out as a net positive in any way.

Would that even matter? No it wouldn't because you wouldn't accept it anyway. In fact, I already explained earlier in the topic why the junction system is a good thing, and you glossed right over it as if I hadn't posted at all. You want to say that my original point is invalid because I didn't say anything positive about the game. That is not true. What is true is that you have proven my point exactly. You are incapable of accepting anything positive about the game, even when it is put right in front of you. You ignore it, or dismiss it, and you you do it on purpose because doing otherwise would force you to admit you are wrong.

And to be completely honest, even if I were to lay aside my traditional hyperbole and admit that yes, there are SOME things that the game does that aren't completely terrible (which I already did, previously, IN THIS VERY THREAD), the problem is that minor positives here and there in no way offset glaring, major negatives. At a certain point, the net value shifts, and a game stops potentially being "a good game in spite of its flaws" and becomes "a bad game with one or two minor bright spots".

A game which is 90% flaw and 10% minor positive is NOT a good game. It is not even remotely a good game. It is certainly not a game anyone should ever think of as being better than other games in a series that has produced games which are at least inoffensively mediocre, and games which were stellar achievements in their own time period.

That is a game that should metaphorically hang its head in shame and never show its face in polite society again. The sort of game that should go live in a belltower somewhere.


See now you're just talking about FFIV. This is literally the only good thing about that game, and it's in the opening scene. That's two minutes worth of good topping off 20+ hours of complete ****.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK0-FbYPF88


I'm not going to bother addressing the rest of that mess. You aren't going to listen, and I don't feel like wasting my time for nothing.
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#134CynicalZealotPosted 8/20/2014 8:51:21 PMmessage detail
SoBe posted...
And I am explicitly saying you are wrong.

And I am explicitly saying YOU are wrong.

But I'm also not trying to be a sophist jackass and imply that the specific wording you've chosen somehow means the exact opposite of what you were actually saying, and then claim moral victory as if you've already proven that everything I'm hinting at through veiled innuendo has been proven factually true beyond all hope of counterargument.

Even "agreeing to disagree" (which is how Final Fantasy and Empire/Jedi arguments usually end with us) would be better than the metaphorical equivalent of sticking out your tongue and going "PBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBT!"

You can disagree with my points (and then I can disagree with you disagreeing with them), but at least I'm listing points, and not implying that there are a ton of definitive points you've apparently just missed because of some inherent personality flaw, then refusing to mention a single one and acting sort of smug and superior about it (which is even more telling, when you realize that acting sort of smug and superior about pretty much everything is one of my favorite pastimes!).

Conversely, we could just drop the whole thing entirely (like we usually do once one of us gets bored or distracted or things get kind of tense and uncomfortable and the thinly-veiled sexual tension kicks in), but let's not pretend that somehow counts as some sort of "win" or somehow "proves" anything.

It's also part of why I sort of couched my original comments on it this time in the context of me PERSONALLY never seeing a single good thing in the game and it blatantly being the worst ever to me (keeping it at least marginally subjective), but then you had to go and WAKE THE BEAST.

Though bringing it up at all in the first place? That was totally Entity's fault. :P



SoBe posted...
Would that even matter? No it wouldn't because you wouldn't accept it anyway.

Yet it would still be a vast improvement over not providing a single point of contention or evidence at all, and then acting as if the entire argument is already a fait accompli which you have won through the power of sheer rhetoric or overwhelming TRUTHITUDE.

That doesn't really come across like you're the bigger person just refusing to join in the silly reindeer games as much as it comes across like you don't actually have any coherent arguments, yet still want to come across like you won the argument.

Even just saying "I disagree with you about [insert X, Y, and Z here] would be an improvement. Even if it winds up being a deadlock over an utterly subjective "The music is utterly bland and forgettable" versus "I really like the music and consider it a huge plus!" sort of stance. Because then I at least know what elements of the game you're attempting to defend versus which elements even you concede are at least mediocre or are outright horrible.

Doubly so when we already know we are at least capable, in theory, of liking the same game. Well, one game at least. Well, at one point in time, anyway.

(That's what all this is secretly about, isn't it? You're still totally salty that I stopped playing KoL. I'm on to you now!)

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"This calls for a particularly subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence."
--- Vyvyan, The Young Ones
#135CynicalZealotPosted 8/20/2014 8:51:24 PMmessage detail
SoBe posted...
In fact, I already explained earlier in the topic why the junction system is a good thing, and you glossed right over it as if I hadn't posted at all.

Saying "the cure is worse than the disease" is not glossing over your point. It's acknowledging your point, but then stating very clearly that the DESIRE to bypass grind or the INTENT to create a grind-free mechanic, no matter how noble or positive an idea it might be in THEORY, in no way counts as a positive to me (or plenty of other people, apparently) if the IMPLEMENTATION of the alternative is itself as flawed as grinding itself ever was.

Given the choice between how FFVIII handles combat (and leveling up, monster leveling, gold allotment, item drops, limit breaks, spell drawing, junctioning stats, and GF summon attacks), or the hellacious grind I suffered through to get all of my characters to level 99 in FFVII (like half of which I basically delegated off to roommates anyway) in order to fight the Weapons, I'd almost rather have the grind. I ENJOYED THE GRIND MORE.

(And that's not even getting into concepts like power-leveling, wherein a player consciously chooses to grind, even when they don't need to, because they like steamrolling through enemies. Or because they're having a hard time beating a specific boss. In games like FFVIII, or the boss battles in the Lunar games (which also level to the player's level and get harder the more you level up), that option has essentially been removed from the player entirely.)

I can see good ideas in a lot of those game concepts/mechanics. There are neat premises there. And it's not as if I'm incapable of appreciating games that limit or eliminate grind when handled well (I honestly can't remember a single time when I felt forced to grind to play any of the various WRPGs I quite enjoy these days, and I didn't miss it or long for the good old days). But neat premises poorly implemented are just bad ideas. No one gets bonus points for good intentions.

That's not me ignoring you citing a positive. That is not me ignoring a positive because I am hopelessly blinded by other negatives (which was your original implied argument). That is me explicitly stating that something you consider a positive is not even remotely a positive to me at all. That is me flat-out disputing the only premise you've actually bothered to state at all - namely, that the game is apparently mostly positive, and that the only reason people won't admit that is because they're blinded by minor negatives.

And if "Hey, there's no grinding!" is the sum total of all the positives that you consider somehow completely offset all of the other negatives (because it's pretty much the only point you've brought up at all so far), then that's really never an argument that's going to win me over in any way, ever, even if I completely open-minded and willing to concede a point or three. Especially since the far easier and more enjoyable way for me to avoid grind while also having fun is to not play FFVIII at all.

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"This calls for a particularly subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence."
--- Vyvyan, The Young Ones
#136CynicalZealotPosted 8/20/2014 8:52:25 PMmessage detail
If you want to argue that there are multiple positives, which are strong enough to offset what negatives there are, and that the only reason people think the game is nothing but negatives because they're focused on the negatives and are just ignoring the positives, then you actually kind of have to list at least a few things that are actually positive.

Or, at the very least, disagree with at least a few of the things I've explicitly named as negatives. Which, admittedly, is pretty much every single facet of the game (except maybe the end credits. And maybe the opening cut-scene, but only the first time I watched it in 1999). But at least try! Unless you ARE tacitly admitting that literally everything about the game is terrible, and you can't even attempt to defend a single aspect of it even subjectively.

I'm actually honestly curious about what strengths you seem to believe the game has that make it the overwhelming best title in the entire franchise, that so many other people are all just magically incapable of seeing. Because then at least I can understand your lunacy. I WANT TO KNOW. Even if I'm probably going to disagree with every single thing you say, I want to know WHAT you're trying to say.

If nothing else, I at least did you the honor of respecting you enough to say "Here is a list of what I hate and why", and not just go "Literally everything is terrible and if you can't see that you're defective and probably Hitler!"

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"This calls for a particularly subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence."
--- Vyvyan, The Young Ones
#137CynicalZealotPosted 8/20/2014 8:52:47 PMmessage detail
SoBe posted...
See now you're just talking about FFIV.

See, I think this is kind of touches on the core of why this whole thing has clearly burned straight down to some deep dark nerve and unleashed a torrent of pissiness. Even I am still self-aware enough to realize I'm totally overreacting to this whole deal.

But I'm basically trying to have something resembling an intellectual conversation (rather than just using knee-jerk rhetoric tactics to "win" arguments), even if we both disagree in almost purely subjective ways and will likely never compromise on our points of view. There can at least be some back and forth. Discussion. Mutual respect. Even if it ends with both of us knowing the other person is never going to agree.

But nearly every post you've made has been Rhetoric 101 bull****. It's "I'm too cool for the room" passive-aggressive sniping. Then you come out with flippant retorts like that, which are basically the equivalent of screaming "I know you are, but what am I!" when someone hurts your feelings on the playground in elementary school.

And then you have the solid titanium balls to admit that "I'm incapable of admitting I'm wrong", when basically your last three posts all literally translate to "I can't actually voice a single rational thought in defense of my point, but my ego is far too fragile to admit I'm wrong, or even to just beg off, so I'll be vaguely pompously dismissive and act like a smug p**** whose already won, and hope nobody notices."

Which grates on me because I know you're actually capable of better than that, and I usually respect your viewpoints even when I disagree with them, and even when I enjoy giving you playful abuse about them. Posts like that wouldn't actually bother me coming from like 80% of the rest of PotD, because I don't actually RESPECT most of the terrible people here these days. But I expect better of you.

Hell, at this point I'm almost like 70% convinced you're deliberately trolling. And am developing the sneaking suspicion that every opinion you've voiced in these topics for the last few years has been deliberately contrarian simply to get a rise out of us all.

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"This calls for a particularly subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence."
--- Vyvyan, The Young Ones
#138CynicalZealotPosted 8/20/2014 8:55:00 PMmessage detail
SoBe posted...
I'm not going to bother addressing the rest of that mess. You aren't going to listen, and I don't feel like wasting my time for nothing.

Saying "Well, I'm not gonna say anything because you clearly won't listen" is a meaningless bull**** null argument, because I am absolutely ******* listening to you. I am listening to you as hard as one human being can possibly listen to another. I am listening so hard that it takes 16000+ characters to respond to you! But listening to you doesn't mean I have to mindlessly agree with you either.

And if your only response to someone disagreeing with you is to completely lock up, act mildly pompous, and then dismissively imply that you've already won the argument but you can't be bothered to justify it, and sort of passive aggressively imply that everything everyone else says just proves you even righter, and that the only reason it isn't completely self-evident to everyone is because they're just not trying, or are defective, or are stupid, etc, all because you either don't feel like having the argument at all, or can't be bothered to actually defend anything you say in any way, no matter how unpopular or inflammatory, THEN DON'T ******* RESPOND TO THE BAIT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Put up or shut up.

People make jokey comments about FFVIII? Shrug and ignore it. Or just respond with the traditional jokey comment about how FFIV/FFVI/FFVII sucks and move on.

I'd have way more respect for you if you just shrugged and went "what'evs" or said "Let's not argue about this, we never agree anyway" rather than trying to shut down all pretense of discussion while simultaneously trying to "win" moral high ground like a passive aggressive b****.



GRRR! PO ANRGY! MUST SMASH THINGS! GRARGH!

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"This calls for a particularly subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence."
--- Vyvyan, The Young Ones
#139Raganork10Posted 8/20/2014 9:03:23 PMmessage detail
Jesus, PO just wrote an entire book on why he hates FF8. And even though I skimmed through most of it for some reason, he still can't make me sway away my opinion that it's one of the best games ever made. I can look past its flaws and enjoy the entire package. Some of the stuff (like drawing and junctioning) aren't even flaws for me. And if you think the cast sucks (which I also disagree with), I challenge you to play through Tales of Graces F to see actual characters that make you want to pull your hair out.
#140Entity13(Topic Creator)Posted 8/20/2014 9:46:47 PMmessage detail
CynicalZealot posted...
Entity13 posted...
Also, seeing Jason and Barb smile while hugging one another is . . . interesting.

Thinking on it, I don't really recall them ever having all that much interaction in the past. Jason's main time in the spotlight was only about five years in the middle of the 80's (post-Crisis), at a time when Barbara really wasn't around all that much (and the last two years of which were after she'd been shot, when she really wasn't doing much of anything at all other than learning how to poop in bedpans). By the time she came back as Oracle, he was already dead (or, well, "mostly dead", anyway, via Death in the Family).

After he came back as Red Hood, they never really had much chance to interact, even during Battle for the Cowl. If anything, he's just about the only Robin Batman's ever had that Barbara DIDN'T establish some sort of relationship with. Hell, Barbara's got more of a connection to Cassandra Cain, who has tenuous relationships at best with the rest of the Bat-family.

About the only thing Jason and Barbara ever had in common was getting massively screwed over by the Joker, though in both cases that's been moderately retconned away, so they don't even really have that all that much any more.

And also, they're both redheads, if you believe Grant Morrison, but no one ever should because he is insane, and that premise has changed like a dozen times already anyway.


It would appear New 52 retconned it so that they knew each other before now. That, or this is another case of inconsistent writing.
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