Help me with my new game group.

#1Malkavius77Posted 12/25/2013 1:17:36 AM
Hi I'm planning to start a new game after almost beating it a month ago. I actually bought it when it originally came out but was too busy playing everquest and diablo 2, and eventually lost it heh. The group I used the first time was fighter/rogue/bard/gadgeteer/mage/priest. Looked through a lot of faqs and topics to help, and game went pretty smoothly.

My next play through I want to do monk/ninja/sam/lord/bishop/alch. But would like advice and have ALOT of questions so please bear with me. For the monk I am not sure what race would be best. Also I am debating on wether to focus on martial arts or just make them a 2hand staff user so he can use the death staff (forget name) in northern wilderness. And he would be my only character with long range since I don't plan on using RPCs this time. Also what is some armor I should try to get for both monk and ninja. I wasn't able to find much at all during my first play through. Are there any awesome monk/ninja only gear I can find? Gonna make my ninja a faerie for the cane of corpus though so the armor will be even more limited? Is sam only armor the best armor for them for the most part? I will only have 2 sword users so I am curious which swords would be best for sam and lord. I will give bloodlust to my lord and diamond epee to my sam, and then when I can get bushido blade is it a better wep than the epee? I forget the stats on bushido.

I know the muramasa drops in rapax castle. Is it worth trying to get? Or would it just be better to slap fang or ivory blade on sam? If I zone into a zone then zone out and back in does that reset the items in a chest? What would be the best sword main hand for the lord, not counting items that are dropped by chance in chest. I was thinking a dwarf lord for being tanky, but any other suggestions would be nice. I'm also really stumped on race for bishop and alch.

I would like to know what spells I should learn for the bishop and alch every level though. I don't get the convenience of having a mage/gad/bard so I have to manage my spell choices well. I know I pretty much need armor plate / missile shield/enchanted blade/ magic screen/ soul shield/ element shield/ haste. Feels like my bishop will be very very busy. Is there a list of potions I can make with alch btw? I have heard there are ways to make them but no recipes.

I plan to make monk/sam/nin/lord pure melee/ranged (no spells). I know its not the best way and I'm gimping myself, but I dislike hybrids. So please keep that in mind. Monk is going to use sling. ninja throwing. Then sam bow maybe? And lord blunderbuss? Not sure what to put on them.

Ok sorry for the long read guys I am finally done.
#2PainAmplifierPosted 12/25/2013 8:30:40 AM
For the monk I am not sure what race would be best

There is no generic 'best', just which one is better for how you will be developing that PC. Mostly it depends on what stat you want to raise fastest and/or expert skill you want unlocked. Any specific racial traits could also be a consideration if applicable, like Dwarven damage resistence which has been a recommendation for Monks in the past.

Also I am debating on wether to focus on martial arts or just make them a 2hand staff user so he can use the death staff (forget name) in northern wilderness

I really dislike 'cursed' weapons. I feel the inability to instantly switch to a sling or bow hinders your character growth more than the extra power of the cursed weapons helps it. Having to move your entire party to get in combat range when enemies don't close and party formation isn't an option is a hindrance as well. That said, it is a personal preference and is up to you. I tend to favor Martial arts for the Monk, due to the class bonus to that skill, which can really help in the early game. If you do go staff in the end, I prefer the Bo weapons instead of the Staff of Doom. None are cursed and you can smoothly progress from Bo to Hayai then Zaitachi Bo. If anything, save the Staff of Doom for the Alchemist who would need the melee range boost more.

Also what is some armor I should try to get for both monk and ninja

Monk and Ninja don't get much choice in armor. The monk can wear Robes and Ninja can wear their starter armor. (Gossamer gown for Faerie Ninja) and the only other armor they can wear is the Canezou set and a few odd head items including the Helm of Serenity. Which is why dwarven damage resistance is suggested for these chars. For the most part these characters will rely on Stealth for AC. (You can also get Reflexion, but it's redundant if you have a high Stealth skill) Otherwise load up on +AC accessories and cloaks when your stealth skill is still low. (Amulets of Healing are +3 AC and Crock sells them...)

Are there any awesome monk/ninja only gear I can find?

Other than the Cane of Corpus, there is no Ninja/Monk only gear that is 'awesome'. It is the characters skill set that makes them powerful when combined with the regular top end gears.

Gonna make my ninja a faerie for the cane of corpus though so the armor will be even more limited?

Not really any more so than Ninja are already limited, and Faerie get a base +AC bonus that is useful for stealth classes. The main limitation will be the Faerie race restrictions/limitations. (Carry capacity, etc.) I suggest making Vitality a early game priority though as Faerie could use the extra HP when starting out.
#3PainAmplifierPosted 12/25/2013 9:10:22 AM
Is sam only armor the best armor for them for the most part?

Mostly, but in the mid game there are some armors that will be better than the SAM only stuff until you get to the Rapax areas and Ferro.

I will only have 2 sword users so I am curious which swords would be best for sam and lord.
Samurai get Critical Strike, so a weapon that increases that helpful. Dual weilding is less useful than you might think though so using a 2H sword is an option for them as well. If you want a really OP Samurai, consider a Mook SAM and give it a Giant's Sword. The 30% KO and extended reach is hard to beat combo for a sword specialist.

Most people will dual weild Lord's, with Diamond Eyes in the offhand. Again I don't like Cursed weapons so I don't use Bloodlust and would rather use another sword instead. Also, yes the Bushido is better than the Diamond Epee.

I know the muramasa drops in rapax castle. Is it worth trying to get? Or would it just be better to slap fang or ivory blade on sam? If I zone into a zone then zone out and back in does that reset the items in a chest?


Chest loot is fixed the first time you enter a zone. Thus it's a pain to re-clear the Rapax castle multiple times to get the Muramasa if it doesn't show up right away in the King's Chest. It's better to assume you won't get it and consider it lucky if you do. People will do this for the Light Sword as there are two chances to get it in that zone (iirc, Bucanneer chest and Davy Jones locker) and only two major fixed battles. (Nessie and the Buccaneers) But for most other zones resetting is more of a hassle than it's worth.

I suggest Elf for the Bishop (Good starting stats to allow maxing INT and PIE but not gimping other stats too much) The Alch it doesn't matter too much, but I lean towards Human for them. For the Lord you may want to try the Rawulf race and save the Dwarf to be the Monk for their more melee oriented stats.

For the Lord, best main hand weapon is the best weapon not needed for another char. (Since Diamond Eyes in the second hand makes up for a lot.)

I would like to know what spells I should learn for the bishop and alch every level though. I don't get the convenience of having a mage/gad/bard so I have to manage my spell choices well. I know I pretty much need armor plate / missile shield/enchanted blade/ magic screen/ soul shield/ element shield/ haste. Feels like my bishop will be very very busy. Is there a list of potions I can make with alch btw? I have heard there are ways to make them but no recipes.

You are gimping yourself if you ignore your Hybrids spellcasting entirely. Your best bet for spell coverage is to have the Bishop get the most important one up, the Alchemist can do Elemental Shield and Purify Air, and the Hybrids do the others. It doesn't take much effort to build up those skills over time so they are ready when really needed. (Late game)

For spell learning, you want as many spells from books and save picks for the Level 6/7 spells for the Bishop. Single book casters don't need to hoard their level up picks like Bishops do if they want to get as many spells as possible. For Bishops I usually start with Mind Stab (No book for that spell) and Heal (I find that crucially important early game, even if it is an easily bought item and can be found much later in Trynton.) as there are four guaranteed books in the Monestary (Light, Stamina, Blessings and Traps) any others you find here are only as possible chest loot.

So for Bishops you will only want to pick the spells that will help train your skills up and contribute to the party at the same time or are critical spells you aren't sure you will otherwise get from loot or shops before you need them.
#4PainAmplifierPosted 12/25/2013 9:14:01 AM
Alchemy Recipes
Skill Level Item 1 + Item 2 = Result

15 Light Heal + Bless = Guardian Angel
15 Light Heal + Mod Heal = Heavy Heal
15 Light Heal + Poison Reduction = Cure Poison
20 Stink bomb + Boom bomb = Acid bomb
20 Mod Heal + Mod Stamina = Pickmeup
40 Cure Light Condition + Heavy Heal = Cure Disease
50 Heavy Heal + Cure Disease = Potion of Renewal
50 Heavy Heal + Heavy Stamina = Potion of Restoration
50 Sneeze Powder + Flash Powder = Pandemonium Powder
75 Dust of Dessication + Concussion Powder = Skeleton Powder
85 Magic Nectar + Potion of Renewal = Resurrection Powder
95 Ice bomb + Fire bomb = Canned Elemental

I think I got most everything answered that didn't depend directly on another answer...but that is one of the things that makes this game so great, there is no 'One Way' to do things and every party can be used to complete the game and do well if you build them up.
#5Malkavius77(Topic Creator)Posted 12/27/2013 11:35:58 PM
Wow thanks for all that Info that has helped a lot. For the races, would you recommend any other besides dwarf for monk? I like dwarves, but picturing a dwarf monk would look pretty silly. I have a felpur sam, but would I get any benefit out of making a human sam? And what would I lose if I made a human one? I wanted to make my lord a dwarf, but rawulf are pretty cool as well. Why do you recommend a rawulf though?

Do you think throwing weapons or sling would be better for monk and nin? The skills are both one in the same so isn't a loss if I use one or the other. But I thought the doubleshot sling would be best for both purely cause it increases the chance to instant kill from ranged. Or do you think wrist rocket would be better?

Which ranged weps do you think my sam and lord should use? I did do a mook fighter with giant sword last game. Was a beast with it, but I'm not a fan of mook that much, and made one purely to try it out. I prefer Dracon as fighters and might just make one of them as a lord if you think it would be an alright decision.

Are there any great 2 handed swords for sam only? How does martial arts damage work? Since it doesn't scale with strength does it just go by how high your martial arts is? And if so what is the damage cap on it? I know it's not about high damage, just getting a lot of small hits in, but I was just curious.
#6TheMouseMasterPosted 12/28/2013 9:48:31 AM
There are a couple race-centric items that you may or may not miss out on if you choose different races. For example, there is a ... I think it's called the Ring of Beasts, which is one of the VERY FEW accessories that regenerate stamina that ISN'T restricted to Female only. However, it's only useable by Felpurr, Rawulf, and Trinnie... and for that matter, it's not a guaranteed drop IIRC, so you may never even see one all game.

And of course, the Giant's Blade, which is a guaranteed-find and Mook only, and really the only reason a Mook should be chosen for a Fighter-ish role. I prefer Mook Ranger myself to get use out of it's "extended" property by having other short-range guys actually on the front line, but that's just me ;p.



I suppose I'm just not as sure why a Dwarf monk would look silly. Of course, I've played a lot of D&D games, so dwarves in robes pummeling the crap out of people unarmed is something I'm used to.


I will say this: Despite the "class bonus" of a lord being Dual Wielding, they often a better used for Sword&Board roles; combine a shield-augmented platearmor defense with their class ability of HP regen per turn, and you have the classic definition of a paladin-tank. Honestly, given what their "class picture" is, I think Sirtech just mis-programmed which of the skills was supposed to be tagged for them ;p. Fighters and their Berzerking ability often do better as dual-wielders... and nothing says you can't have both up front as your "frontline".


I don't think there's any "great" 2-handed samurai swords, as least none that will do a SAM better than Fang (or Ivory or LightSword or whatever) + offhand, to maximize their instakill potential when synergized with Lightning Strike. Again, that's just personal preference; if a SAM was your primary frontline damage dealer, then a mook-Sam using Giant Blade might not be a bad choice, but it sounds like your lineup is going to have plenty of physical damage output to begin with, so the "technical" boost of instakills would do your Samurai better.



As for ranged weapons:

For a fighter and a samurai, I just recommend bows. There are SO many good arrows and bows out there, that you can easily run a party of 4 bow users, and have each one able to hold 2 different types of ammo AND a different type of bow with no overlap.

For a monk, I tend to use throwing weapons, but only because:

A) Dual-wielding throwing weapons lets them throw more than even the Doubleshot sling allows per turn (once you get the Boomerang Shuriken, ammo also stops being an issue)

B) I tend to utilize slings (and the special ammunition for them) on my casters, as that's really the only non-magic ranged option they have. There are a number of times I find myself out of mana (especially in midgame), and having a non-useless backup for them to do is quite useful.
---
TheMouseMaster, you are my hero. That post wins you a whole 17 1/2 internets.
--- Flakhawk
#7PainAmplifierPosted 12/28/2013 10:48:43 AM
Malkavius77 posted...
Wow thanks for all that Info that has helped a lot. For the races, would you recommend any other besides dwarf for monk? I like dwarves, but picturing a dwarf monk would look pretty silly. I have a felpur sam, but would I get any benefit out of making a human sam? And what would I lose if I made a human one? I wanted to make my lord a dwarf, but rawulf are pretty cool as well. Why do you recommend a rawulf though?


Whenever you make a character, other than their base stats, you also want to consider the bonus point amounts/limits. These combined with the base stats are what determines how high a stat starts and how much you can boost it during creation. This can be the difference between getting a Expert skill unlocked early or not getting one at all. If you don't want or need the expert skill (Reflexion isn't needed much if you have stealth for example) it can also help you get a stat to your desired target level early so you can focus on other stats as needed.

For the most part the two main critical stats are Strength and Intelligence. STR gets you Power Strike and INT gets you Power Cast. Both are extremely useful Expert skills. All the other Expert skills are useful...but either not nearly as much or are mostly useful for specific char, race or party builds. That said you will still want stats in the 75-95 range for specific skill or HP/SP/Stam growth whenever possible even if you don't go that last couple of points to get the Expert Skill for that stat.

Getting back to the Lord though. At creation you have the following possible combinations of Class and Race with the following stat allocation limits.

RACE PPS POINTS (PPS = max points per stat, POINTS = total points to allocate)
--------------------------------------
Human 7 / 20
Elf 4 / 10
Dwarf 9 / 25
Gnome 3 / 5
Hobbit 4 / 10
Faerie 0 / -15
Lizardman 7 / 20
Dracon 9 / 25
Felpurr 0 / 0
Rawulf 7 / 20
Mook 0 / 0

As you can see a Higher PPS let's you raise a stat higher earlier while total points lets you raise more stats overall above their base. Faerie is the worst, since not only can you not allocate any points you will have a 3 level gap before you can allocate *any stat points* at level up due to the -15 penalty. Please note however that this isn't always a crippling issue...I've made some Dracon Bishops with starting penalties that did very well indeed once past those first few levels.

Keep in mind with a 3pt limit on level up, every 5 pt difference is two level ups needed to get the expert skill or just a target value. Thus, even though Dracon looks good, some of the other base stats are 10 pts lower than some other classes with fewer points in key skill growth stats and you will end up spending those points just raising those stats up a bit more at the start to keep them from being too low.

The difference between a Dwarf Lord and a Rawulf Lord would be in how you use/play them. The Dwarf would be able to take more damage and hit harder earlier (STR/VIT bonus), but the Rawulf would have more attacks and other skills would grow faster. (Stealth/Martial Arts) It's a bit of the classic choice between a tank or an evasion class. (Even if in this case both classes can evade.)

Try to keep in mind what your weapon choice or party position and role will be as each skill has two stats that determine their growth. For Martial Arts it is DEX and SPD and Stealth is DEX and INT. Most weapons are STR and DEX, but daggers are DEX and SPD for the most part. So although STR unlocks Power Strike and determines your base Damage bonus it doesnt have much to do with the growth of other important Monk Skills. (Even though skill training can be exploited in many cases to make up a lack in some areas if you put enough time into it, or even just a little can help.)
#8PainAmplifierPosted 12/28/2013 11:09:52 AM
To give you some hard numbers to look at, I have a Rawulf Monk in my current party and these are it's current Stats.

[Level 16 Rawulf MONK]
-------------------------------
STR - 88
INT - 55
PIE - 55
VIT - 55
DEX - 75
SPD - 70
SEN - 72

AC is 9/16
+7 from Stealth
+2 from Magic Items
+4 vs Penetration
34% Absorbtion

Stealth is 78
Close Combat is 58
Ranged Combat is 42
Critical Strike is 56
Psionics is 68

Armor is Robes +1, Suede Pants, Helm of Serenity and Buskins. I don't have a cloak yet and accessories are just Ring of Breezes and a Ahnk of Speed. I am just starting to do the Rapax/Wilderness areas. My Martial Arts damage stats are as follows.

Kick
+8 ini
9-30 Damage Rate
38 Attack Rate
2 Attacks
2 Swings
+8 to hit
+0 Penetration
+76% Damage

Punch
+8 ini
4-21 Damage Rate
36 Attack Rate
1 Attack
2 Swings
+6 To hit
+0 Penetration
+38% Damage

As you can see damage is good although there is still plenty of room to grow and AC/Defense is pretty good even if I am currently fairly deficient in that area. (Stealth helps me a lot so I can give my better AC items to my Alchemist, Bard and Valkyrie who need it more.)

Other than STR I don't have any plans to max out another stat for an Expert Skill, but this was a bit of a test char for the DEX/SPD/SEN stats so if I do another Rawulf Monk I may build it slightly differently once I ascend this one and determine it's final viability.

For the most part other than my Psionics skill, my magic skills are still low since I use magic mostly for support and as added damage when cleaning up instead of wasting the good rocks in my Double shot sling.
#9PainAmplifierPosted 12/28/2013 11:21:28 AM
Malkavius77 posted...
Do you think throwing weapons or sling would be better for monk and nin? The skills are both one in the same so isn't a loss if I use one or the other. But I thought the doubleshot sling would be best for both purely cause it increases the chance to instant kill from ranged. Or do you think wrist rocket would be better?


For a Ninja, Throwing Items are almost always better. Not only do you get Auto-Penetrate, but you also get a chance to Insta-Kill. Plus you can put throwing weapons in both hands for raising your Dual Wielding skills, throwing skill and ranged combat all at the same time. Granted you will probably have horrible accuracy at anything beyond extended range early in the game, but skill points should come fast and furious especially if you dual wield melee weapons as well. My Ninjas are usually my bomb/powder throwing specialists as well, so that gets even more out of the throwing skills as well when combined with my creation and level up points.

For a Monk, Double shot slings hands down. Not only do you have a lot of very good ammo, but the multiple attacks of the double shot slings are ridiculously good at raising the throwing skill as well as good for long range accuracy and damage. Wrist Rocket's extra +hit/dam pales in comparison to the extra attacks (and skill growth!) of the double shot slings. Basically any char that can not use a bow, crossbow or other ranged weapon should be using them. The only downside is rocks are *heavy* and take a lot of weight if you have a lot of characters with slings.
#10PainAmplifierPosted 12/28/2013 11:37:56 AM
Malkavius77 posted...
Which ranged weps do you think my sam and lord should use? I did do a mook fighter with giant sword last game. Was a beast with it, but I'm not a fan of mook that much, and made one purely to try it out. I prefer Dracon as fighters and might just make one of them as a lord if you think it would be an alright decision.


For the Lord, Double or Tripleshot Crossbows are the best with a Siege Crossbow a distant third.

For Samurai, who can't use those Crossbows, the Great and Strong Bows are the best.

Are there any great 2 handed swords for sam only? How does martial arts damage work? Since it doesn't scale with strength does it just go by how high your martial arts is? And if so what is the damage cap on it? I know it's not about high damage, just getting a lot of small hits in, but I was just curious.


There are no 2 hand Samurai only weapons. Best 2H sword they can use may be The Avenger, but it's a rare loot. The Sword of Fire may be the next best and it's a set location item. The others are either cursed (Sword of 4 Winds) or not Samurai usable. (Excalibur)

The main problem here is the best one handed SAM weapons tend to be better than the two handed ones. And the best second hand weapon for a Samurai is the Enchanted Wakizashi, which gets pretty stale if you end up using it all the time. My last SAM used 2H weapons from Antone until it got the Bushido blade, then just one handed that with no second weapon until a better sword came around. Next time I think I will try just using the Bo's with a Samurai instead of a sword even though their Class skill is Swords....