Party for variety

#1Aya BreaPosted 1/8/2014 8:00:43 PM
Hi there. Just wanted to get some advise as I would like to start this game again.

I previously played this game and just gone past Anika. I no longer have that save file so I can't remember 100% of that game. However I built a team with emphasis on variety. I didn't want the typical "swing weapon until enemy dies" of classes, and I don't really want to have duplicated roles.

So my previous party was something like... a 4 book bishop, gadgeteer, bard, ranger, monk and I can't remember the 6th member, possibly rogue, samurai, ninja or maybe even fighter (though I usually stay away from the vanilla classes so unlikely).

So i would like to have something similar. Just want to know how the potential for a team like this, and what the 6th class should be. I know it'll probably have a rocky start (it was fairly challenging getting to Anika) and have to skill grind a lot, but I want a powerful team with variety, so I'm looking at end game power.

I don't really like having multiple mages, prefer a "one man army" whom could do it all, hence the sole bishop. I like the buffs from gadgeteer and bard.

Monk and ranger seem interesting, which is why I picked them, but are they very strong end game?

All feedback welcome. Thanks in advance.
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Pokemon Y 0619 4338 9000 IGN Henri Miidonna Growlithe Ninetales Larvesta
#2wolfy42Posted 1/8/2014 10:31:06 PM
Hi Aya,

I'm starting too, and have played around a bit lately so maybe I can help, and since our goals seem pretty similar I can let you know why I am making some choices.

I also wanted a gadgeteer as they are pretty unique in the game. The omnigun is pretty freaking cool....and the gadgeteer deals with locks for me.

I also wanted a bishop, although I may not go with a 4 book...since I'm getting divine magic elsewhere. I am getting my arcane, alchemist and psionic spells from my bishop. I may add in divine late game...possibly. I plan on holding off on picking spells on level up, and mainly using spell books to get the early spells on him.

I'm probably going with 2 Valkaryies ....because A: Polearms are great extended range weapons, B: They both can handle divine magic well (and 2 divine casters are better then one....and 3 (if I get it for bishop later) will really give me versatility in healing/raising dead etc. For my formation I plan on having my Valk's on each side, to prevent my gadgeteer and bishop from getting hit by any melee enemies as much as possible (while still being able to hit anything).

That leaves 2 spots....and I'm not 100% on which classes I want to fill them yet. At first, I thought...maybe ranger...not so much for the alchemy (can get that from bishop) but for the auto-search...and ranged instant kill possibilities. I decided though that I really don't need auto search (I can just turn it on manually)...and so my choices are narrowing a bit.

I don't need a lord really, and not really into a samurai. From what I understand fighters are better at doing damage then both of them, and also....do have more hp/defenses in most cases.

Fighters in fact, seem to have some really good advantages.

One option though, is to start as something else, and switch to fighter. That would let me max out stealth, and boost critical strikes significantly, then switch to fighter...which gets most of it's advantages from being a fighter, not leveling up as one.

Monks seem like a good choice for the first class here, allowing me to fight enemies with the monks to boost stealth initially (maxing it), and get critical strikes up. The loss by not leveling up as a fighter the first few levels, would mainly be in max hp....which isn't a huge difference from monks (negligable long term), meanwhile the boost in AC from stealth (Which seems to work in all kinds of armor)...and the crit hit ability....seems like it's worth the trade off.

Still, not sure if I'm gonna do that. It should be mentioned that many people consider a fairy ninja to be awesome long term due to a specific item that gives an added 15% chance to instant kill (which works on anything even bosses). I may just go with that as my second front line character and stick with a pure fighter for my first.

A bard is yet another option I have considered...but I really don't have a slot for it to be honest, unless I ditch a valkarie or something. To me, it was really a choice between bard or gadgeteer...and I went with the later. I really want my 2 Valkeries....I like them over Lords and they do great extended damage...while being able to heal.....and being hard to kill.

I guess to be really versatile you could go with Fighter/F-Ninja/Valk/Lord/Gadg/Bish

I'd rather have 2 valks then the valk/lord though....but it would give you more diversity (lett extended range attacks to start though).

If you make your Bishop a Fairy as well, you could toss his extra weapon over to your ninja to dual wield right from the start.
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No duckies, just drowning.
#3jamiemadrox024Posted 1/9/2014 12:52:21 PM
Alright, I'll try my best to give you some advice. I don't particularly like 6 man parties, and I would recommend a four or five man party if you do not like to primary classes or duplicate roles. Smaller, compact parties grow much faster than large parties (this is due not only to more experience, but because less members = more training per battle for each member), and I would recommend them if you want to take the most advantage of hybrid classes.
That being said, hybrids don't really have a problem functioning in a 6 man, so I'll give you advice based on a 6 man party. I don't take into account spoilers in my advice, so please read at your own risk.

Aya Brea posted...
So my previous party was something like... a 4 book bishop, gadgeteer, bard, ranger, monk and I can't remember the 6th member, possibly rogue, samurai, ninja or maybe even fighter (though I usually stay away from the vanilla classes so unlikely).


With a five man party of Bishop/Gadgeteer/Bard/Ranger/Monk, I would suggest a Fighter or Rogue. Fighters and Rogues are quite special in this game; their standard attacks carry damage multipliers. Fighter's Berserk command provides a 100% damage multiplier that is applied to every swing and is multiplicative. Backstab works in a similar way: it grants additional multipliers based on penetration/hit (I think). Backstab is weird, and I don't understand the exact mechanic behind it. It will, however, increase your damage by a crapton.
I highly suggest one of these powerful melee attackers for your party because they will make things much smoother. You mentioned that before Arnika you had a rocky start, and a Fighter or Rogue will alleviate that. It's probably also good to mention Fighter/Rogue don't get any less strong as the game progresses; they are always monstrous physical attackers that will put others to shame.

Given your party composition, I would suggest you don't make a 4 book Bishop. I mean, you can if you want to, but they're annoying to train. Two books is so much more convenient as you can train one school with Knock Knock and the other with Divine Trap. Considering you have a Monk and a Ranger, I would suggest making a Divinity/Wizardry Bishop. Divinity/Wizardry provides a ton of out-of-combat buffs, and some great in-combat buffs and debuffs. Wizardry gets Whipping Rocks / Crush as early as Alchemy does, and you have a Bard to replicate Insanity/Haste. It is pretty much unnecessary to learn Alchemy or Psionics on your Bishop because you have a Bard, Gadgeteer, Monk, and Ranger all capable of casting many of the most useful spells available in those schools. However, you can still make a 4 book bishop if you really want; I'm just trying to let you know you don't need to.

Gadgeteer and Bards are super cool, and I think you'll enjoy them. Bards are one of those classes that is just an incredible boon in the early/mid-game. When you find Bloodlust in Arnika, I would definitely consider tossing it and a Heater Shield on your Bard. Soon after, your Bard will gain access to Insanity & Haste, and you will have a very potent buffing/debuffing fighter type character on your hands. Gadgeteer on the other hand starts off fairly weak, but it will eventually catch up in power. It takes much longer to find extremely useful gadgets than it does instruments, and ammo is extremely weak compared to melee weapons early on.
One nice thing to note about your party is that with a Bishop and Gadgeteer, you will eventually have two characters capable of casting high level Superman. Superman literally makes your character better at everything, and in my opinion is the most potent in-combat buff.

Crap. Gonna need a second post.
#4jamiemadrox024Posted 1/9/2014 1:26:30 PM
Monk/Ranger: These are the fluff of your party, and if you wanted a smaller party, you could cut them out. I'm not asserting that these classes won't become very powerful and useful, but that they're pretty much just extra. The four characters I already outlined pack more than enough to handle the entire game.
Ranger is going to suffer early game in the same way Gadgeteer does: ammo is really weak early on. However, once you gain access to shops better than Arnika, a Ranger's damage can start to shine a bit. I'm not positive how you want to build your Ranger, but there are a couple ways to do so. If you wanted to use him as a primary bow user (this is what I assume you want), go ahead and pump Dexterity/Senses and relevant combat skills. Later, get some Strength and Speed, and you'll be popping caps in mofos. Speaking of popping caps, you can also make a Modern Weapon Ranger if you wanted to. If you do, don't pump Strength. Bows/Xbow/Sling benefit from Strength, but Modern Weapons do not. Later in the game, Rangers will instant kill fairly well with ammo that provides Kill %. It's arguable whether they are better than Ninjas for ranged instant kills - Ninjas have auto-penetrate but incredibly poor weapon choices in comparison.
I wouldn't exactly suggest this for your specific party, but I love casting Rangers. They have access to much better gear than Alchemists do and can even hold their own in melee. Alchemy, in my opinion, is the best school for pure offensive magic, and a Powercast Ranger is just cool, y'know?

And about Monks, well I love Monks. Bards are already replicating the Psionic spells you really want, so I would personally ignore magic on the Monk. You pretty much have the choice of going Martial Arts or Staffs, and I don't know which you would prefer. Martial Arts eventually (and, I do mean eventually) does better damage than Staffs, but I'm unsure if you will hit that point with a 6 man experience pool. There is a ton of good Staffs in this game, and they are all guaranteed to be available. Either choice is going to give you a competent melee fighter by mid-game. I would suggest Staffs for this party the more I think about it. Other than that, Monks are really simple. Invest healthily in Str/Dex/Spd and slap him in the front row for stealth training.

To tell you the truth, any class that is properly built can be a powerhouse end-game. Even classes I generally consider to be the weakest (I'm looking at you, Lord), can and will become very strong. However, because of the mechanics of the game, there are some classes that will just plain be better at certain things. Fighter & Rogue are the prime example of this; there simply isn't another class that can hope to match the raw melee damage these two classes can dish out. Also, another thing to note is that while melee attacks gain an additional damage multiplier for attacking a paralyzed or unconscious monster, ranged attacks do not.

Anyway, your questions were rather vague and unspecific, so I hope this torrent of information has helped some way. If you have any more specific questions about party composition or character building, please feel free to ask. If I don't get back to you, I'm sure the other regular posters will eventually.
#5Aya Brea(Topic Creator)Posted 1/9/2014 7:28:28 PM
Thank you for both of your input. I understand I wasn't being very specific but I just sorta wanted a general opinion of how that team works.

I am pretty sure that my 6th previously was a samurai. It was neither here or there really.

I understand theres a lot of work involved with a 4 book bishop, but I've made up my mind that is what I want. I don't like having specialised mages taking up party spots, and I don't like my melee characters using magic either. (If they made the monk and ranger with no magic, I would still pick them). And I'm trying to cramp in as much variety as I can in 6 slots. I've read the power training tricks and I intend to do them.

Bard and gadgeteer I'm definitely keeping in my part.

I tried out the party last night, but with a hobbit ninja as the 6th. I was toying around with the idea of having all 3 of my physical characters having instant kill attacks. The idea of fairy ninja using cursed weapon don't really appeal to me, instant death missiles was one of the ninjas selling points for me.

But maybe a thief would be the best 6th spot. I might try it out.

I make a dwarf monk, despite negative stats. I thought maybe having racial and class damage mitigation would be a good tank.

Are modern weapons better than bows for ranger? Given that I have a gadgeteer in my team anyway.

Also I heard about people training stealth to 100 at lv1. How does it work? I thought you only receive your skill ups at the end of the fight? And I thought you could only get 1 rank of skill up? If anyone could explain this to me it'll be great.

Also what weapons? If bard gets swords, what should thief use? I'm thinking martial arts for monk.

Thanks in advance.
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Pokemon Y 0619 4338 9000 IGN Henri Miidonna Growlithe Ninetales Larvesta
#6wolfy42Posted 1/10/2014 2:02:37 AM
I like staves better for the monk..because again....it is extended range which gives you more formation options...and your damage seems to go up better based on the weapons you find...compared to just boosting the martial arts skill. If you don't have any other character/s using staves...then might as well have the monk use them!!

You can increase more then 1 skill point in a battle...don't think there is a limit in fact...so all you have to do is have a fairy with divine magic in your party, with characters who have stealth in the front (back into a corner so the enemy can't hit your back row), and just constantly defend with the characters you want to boost stealth with.

Defend boosts stamina..so you never run out.

The fairy regens sp in combat, so you can keep healing the characters being hit.

In theory...you could do this with ALL of your characters (starting them in a class with stealth), except for the 1 fairy character with divine magic).

Or at least for all your characters that might eventually be in the front getting hit by melee attacks.

A monk already gets stealth. A thief gets stealth as well. If your gonna make a fighter, start as a thief first....giving you stealth (although ninja/monk are other options)....then change to fighter at level 2 after boosting stealth.

As far as spells. I know what your saying about the bishop, but I also think trying to 4 book is is going to really be annoying. I know you don't want your fighter types (like the monk) to be casting spells...but it's mainly just the buffs that you really want. The bard also gets some of the buffs anyway (haste for instance), so you don't need to worry about it that much.

As far as alchemy is concerned....you want at least 1 character to boost it for the potions if nothing else. The spells are quite good as well. I would say go with Wizardry/Alchemy for sure on your bishop (because you don't have any other wizardry caster, and you want an alchemist anyway)..and then later on boost divine (Cause the more divine casters you have the better.)

I would NOT split your last 3 points between 2 books. I can see going with 3 points in 3 books (with a monk and a bard...I'd say Wiz/alch/divine), and then only boosting psionic if/after you max the others.

Might I ask why your going for a ranger btw? Other then being search experts (which after playing around with parties WITH a ranger, and without...doesn't seem like a big deal anymore)...they just don't seem great. All the penalties of a gadgeteer (early level not so great etc)...without any really great long term advantages (at least didn't seem like any to me)...and no gadgets they can make!!

Bard/Gadget/Bishop I get as a strong base. Every one of those brings something unique to your party. Bard is just plain cool with the instruments to be honest, and it adds to the game...because it's one more thing to take joy in when you find an instrument.

Of those 3, you don't have a dedicated healer. I know what you mean about not liking your hybrids to cast spells...but....I really don't like priests. They just don't seem as good as Valk's to me.

Monks...can have extended attacks with staves....so having a monk is great early on...in combo with a valk (each can take a side stance....protecting your back row more). The fighter honestly seems to do twice the damage (at least early on) then other charcters on average with Berzerk.

So that would have a formation something like this:

Fighter.....Bard
Valk Monk
Gadget Bishop

Bard gets healing abilities from instruments...and your valk and bishop can get divine magic. Fighter is for heavy melee damage...monk can instant kill and valk has decent melee damage as well (and bard isn't horrid).
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No duckies, just drowning.
#7PainAmplifierPosted 1/12/2014 9:14:29 AM
Aya Brea posted...

Are modern weapons better than bows for ranger? Given that I have a gadgeteer in my team anyway.

On stats alone Modern weapons are of limited use other than the omni gun. Your only ammo, Musket Balls, does only 1-6 damage with no other modifiers. The weapons themselves have large damage ranges and their stats are listed differently than bows and crossbows. AKA, as 1-24 damage rather than +X% damage.

You can get the main two useful modern weapons very early from Kunar, the Musket and the Blunder Buss, but unlike the Omnigun there really isn't a better weapon after that which is usable for long periods of time. (Frontier Phaser uses solar paks which can't be bought and mystery ray doesn't do more damage. Although iirc the Phaser may be bugged and not need ammo...but it's still less max damage than the Blunder buss.)

So unless there is some under the hood modifiers to damage for modern weapons and from the skill, bows and xbows with good or best ammo will be better than modern weapons other than the omnigun which is a great weapon once upgraded to at least level 7. (And or get to Arnika for some better stone ammo.)

I'll have to make a modern weapon ranger next time just to see if they do improve (like martial arts do) in the long game. For now though the know better or safer option is to stick to bows.

Also what weapons? If bard gets swords, what should thief use? I'm thinking martial arts for monk.


Thief should dual wield a Sword in the main hand and dagger in the offhand. A Stiletto is good for the offhand with a 10% Instakill, but the Canezou Dagger in the late game has better base stats for anything other than a Faerie (Sprite's Dagger) or Lizardman/Dracon (Serpent's tooth).

Martial Arts are good for a Monk, not only do you get the skill bonus, but you also have a change to KO with your attacks. On the other hand if you need or want another extended range attacker in your party, Bo's work quite well for them also.
#8jamiemadrox024Posted 1/12/2014 2:36:40 PM
PainAmplifier posted...

You can get the main two useful modern weapons very early from Kunar, the Musket and the Blunder Buss, but unlike the Omnigun there really isn't a better weapon after that which is usable for long periods of time. (Frontier Phaser uses solar paks which can't be bought and mystery ray doesn't do more damage. Although iirc the Phaser may be bugged and not need ammo...but it's still less max damage than the Blunder buss.)


The Frontier Phaser is indeed bugged. It can be fired without ammo, but it loses it's +% to kill bonus while doing so.

PainAmplifier posted...

I'll have to make a modern weapon ranger next time just to see if they do improve (like martial arts do) in the long game. For now though the know better or safer option is to stick to bows.


There is no additional damage modifier to Modern Weapons. It gains only attack rating by training the skill. I haven't personally confirmed this, but I've also read from various sources that they don't gain an additional swing by maxing Modern Weapons.

You're right when you say that Modern Weapons is eventually outdone by Bows/Xbows, but that is only when you can by the last class of ammo from Ferro. This is a much later stage in the game compared to obtaining a Blunderbuss. In order for Bows/Xbows to significantly surpass Blunderbuss in damage (Bows especially), you need a hefty amount of Strength. In this respect, Modern Weapons allows you to have more Dex/Spd/Sen or even Int compared to a Bow/Xbow user. It does come with the disadvantage of not benefiting as much from Superman, so there is that.
Bow/Xbow is definitely better, but Modern Weapons are a comparable class and a valid option to build around. Blunderbuss also becomes available in what I consider the hardest portion of the game.
#9Aya Brea(Topic Creator)Posted 1/12/2014 3:27:27 PM
Thank you for all your input.

I really want a ranger for the auto-search. That's definitely convenient. And I heard range instant kills too, so I wanted that, so that's why I definitely want a ranger. And archers are one of my favourite types of classes.

Although when I reviewed the ranger's skill list, I noticed they don't get critical strike. WTF?!? You give them range criticals but not the accompanying boost? Anyway, I tried looking for a save editor to give them that skill, couldn't find any, but stumbled into Cosmic Forge. So I ended up modding few of the classes a little bit.

I removed all spellcasting abilities from the ranger, monk and ninja, since I don't like having my specialised melee characters use magic. To balance that out I gave ranger critical, and some other minor tweeks to the other classes. I also removed the stupidly high INT/PIE requirements for them, since they're not going to cast spells, my justification is that they forgo those stats. And then I found hobbits were the perfect class for most of my team, since they gave me the most free points, but I decided to make my bard a Mook for the story.

I've decided to take a ninja for my 6th slot. I guess my reason behind that is I want all 3 of my melee characters to be instant death attackers, not so much for damage. So taking a damage dealer next to 2 instant deathers seem a little counter productive.

I've just completed Arnika, at LV9. It's been pretty easy so far. I've maxed out music in the monastry. Maxed out stealth for everyone that's got them. Making some pretty good progress on most skills. Engineering at 80. Ranger's attack skills are about 60. The melee characters skills are a little lower, since I've been getting them to defend a lot.

Been working on the Bishop's skills. Toughest part was her alchemy gotten really ahead of the other books from the stealth/music grinding (heal/stamina), so I had to spam wizardry spells in battle to try to get that ahead, so I don't ruin the order for when I start power training it. Wizardry currently at 40, the other books little less. Been pumping points into fire and air, since they're hard to power train. But I intend to get Powercast before I power train, which my Bishop will get in 2 levels time with the fountain boost.

I've been dumping dex for everyone except my bishop, sen for the ranger and gadg, and str/vit for the others. Bishop pumps int and pie.
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Pokemon Y 0619 4338 9000 IGN Henri Miidonna Growlithe Ninetales Larvesta
#10wolfy42Posted 1/12/2014 3:46:56 PM
I believe a rangers critical strike is based on his ranged weapons skill.

It's only for ranged attacks though.


Giving him critical strike skill as well...would probably let him instant kill with melee weapons as well.
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No duckies, just drowning.