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The Stock Grenade Launcher is an unlockable and Loch N Load is the Stock one.

#171BakedStuffEtcPosted 11/17/2012 1:28:37 PM
Dark_Necrid posted...
My opinion isn't better than yours because I main Spy in HL, it's just backed up by experience in the level of play we are talking about across lots of platinum scrims and matches


Which I guess would be relevant if I weren't making good arguments
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My opinion is objective fact. If you disagree, well, you're wrong.
#172Dark_NecridPosted 11/17/2012 1:36:32 PM
BakedStuffEtc posted...
Dark_Necrid posted...
My opinion isn't better than yours because I main Spy in HL, it's just backed up by experience in the level of play we are talking about across lots of platinum scrims and matches


Which I guess would be relevant if I weren't making good arguments


a) in a team situation it is not PYRO VS SPY and that is it. The Pyro has other **** to deal with besides just the Spy, because again, trying to lonewolf as a Spy isn't going to be very effective.

b) The Pyro has other stuff to do than sit right on the Medic and watch for spies. It's a pretty important part of his role, yes, but it isn't the end all be all of what he does, especially not in a team fight where he has to deny the Soldier, deny pipe spam, and repel the enemy combo. If he's focusing on me to the exclusion of everything else (and you basically have to do this if you wish to truly shut down the Spy pick 100% of the time as you are suggesting), then none of that is happening and my teams job just got a million times easier and they are most likely winning engagements.

c) The Pyro isn't always going to be in a position to airblast the Spy away from his Medic.

Your statements just simply do not make logical sense, because if they were correct then spies would never ever get Medic/Heavy/Demoman picks in Platinum Highlander because apparently Pyro's can always shut down spies prior to the stab. This is definitely not the case.
#173BakedStuffEtcPosted 11/17/2012 2:13:49 PM
Dark_Necrid posted...
b) The Pyro has other stuff to do than sit right on the Medic and watch for spies. It's a pretty important part of his role, yes, but it isn't the end all be all of what he does, especially not in a team fight where he has to deny the Soldier, deny pipe spam, and repel the enemy combo.

If he's focusing on me to the exclusion of everything else (and you basically have to do this if you wish to truly shut down the Spy pick 100% of the time as you are suggesting), then none of that is happening and my teams job just got a million times easier and they are most likely winning engagements.


True, but that isn't what I'm saying. If he does happen to be watching the Medic for you at the time that you choose to strike, then he will shut you down regardless of knife. Spycicle will also be better for other reasons when you DO successfully get the pick off.

Dark_Necrid posted...
c) The Pyro isn't always going to be in a position to airblast the Spy away from his Medic.


In which case the only way he can stop a Spycicle Spy is with a well-timed perfect flare. Which is what I said before. And is also kind of a longshot, because you might not even be in position to have sightlines with the Med at the time, might not hit, and possibly won't even be running a flare gun.

Dark_Necrid posted...
Your statements just simply do not make logical sense, because if they were correct then spies would never ever get Medic/Heavy/Demoman picks in Platinum Highlander because apparently Pyro's can always shut down spies prior to the stab.


I was only saying that assuming the situation was the Pyro being aware of the Spy at close range, where he would melt the Spycicle or light you on fire if you're running stock. Which is a reasonable scenario considering the above point.

I'm not saying Pyros shut Spies down 100% of the time. They only do if he's already aware of the Spy and is in close range with him, which is when you would be on fire.
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My opinion is objective fact. If you disagree, well, you're wrong.
#174Dark_NecridPosted 11/18/2012 2:57:02 AM(edited)
Alright, I get you now, and I think we're just kind of misunderstanding each other by talking about different timelines here. I'm talking more about a situation where you're practically on an important classes backside and about to stab and then the Pyro gets undistracted enough or close enough to the combo to flame particle around (he might not even know you're a spy yet either, just checking - so he might not airblast first to conserve ammo, even then if you're close enough you can still stab as he airblasts) so the knife melts right as you're about to stab, so something where your approach is almost successful until the very last second, rather than something where your approach is blown so early that they know you're coming.

The problem here is that this situation is actually common enough that this is a problem. One of the common roles for a Highlander spy is the suicide pick, where a good Spy is expected to go completely aggressive and nab an important pick and expected to die. The pick needed is paramount to your life. The Spycicle is completely contrary to this role, instead of "get picks even if it means dying" it is "live, even if it means lost picks". In this sense, it is not a straight upgrade for good spies, since it is not very good for one of their expected roles. It is pretty good or even a straight upgrade when used for other jobs or situations, but at the suicide pick it is a bad knife to have on.
#175BakedStuffEtcPosted 11/18/2012 5:26:36 PM
Dark_Necrid posted...
Alright, I get you now, and I think we're just kind of misunderstanding each other by talking about different timelines here. I'm talking more about a situation where you're practically on an important classes backside and about to stab and then the Pyro gets undistracted enough or close enough to the combo to flame particle around (he might not even know you're a spy yet either, just checking - so he might not airblast first to conserve ammo, even then if you're close enough you can still stab as he airblasts) so the knife melts right as you're about to stab, so something where your approach is almost successful until the very last second


That's such a split second and rare scenario it's barely worth mentioning tbqh. The vast majority of the time the Pyro's either going to shut you down or miss you completely. The upsides greatly outweigh the remote split-second scenarios, and even if you do miss the stab due to it you can force a pop with revolver shots, an amby headshot, or he may pop uber upon hearing comms that he's got a Spy at his back
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My opinion is objective fact. If you disagree, well, you're wrong.
#176ImbackhahahahaPosted 11/18/2012 5:29:25 PM
Why aren't we at 500 yet?
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#177Dark_NecridPosted 11/19/2012 11:51:06 AM
BakedStuffEtc posted...
Dark_Necrid posted...
Alright, I get you now, and I think we're just kind of misunderstanding each other by talking about different timelines here. I'm talking more about a situation where you're practically on an important classes backside and about to stab and then the Pyro gets undistracted enough or close enough to the combo to flame particle around (he might not even know you're a spy yet either, just checking - so he might not airblast first to conserve ammo, even then if you're close enough you can still stab as he airblasts) so the knife melts right as you're about to stab, so something where your approach is almost successful until the very last second


That's such a split second and rare scenario it's barely worth mentioning tbqh. The vast majority of the time the Pyro's either going to shut you down or miss you completely. The upsides greatly outweigh the remote split-second scenarios, and even if you do miss the stab due to it you can force a pop with revolver shots, an amby headshot, or he may pop uber upon hearing comms that he's got a Spy at his back


Again, it's a scenario that (including when I had stock knife) has happened to me many times and happens enough that riverdude has even seen it and he barely plays Highlander (it happened in my match vs the team he was playing for in S6 even).

The benefits do not outweigh anything if the item contradicts the specific role you have to play - in absolutely no situation is it worth losing a good pick in order to live if you are suicide picking. No matter how rare or common you think it is, it only needs to happen once at the wrong time to decide a game. That's pretty important if you are trying to win.
#178ImbackhahahahaPosted 11/19/2012 2:14:08 PM
DarkNecrid vs. Baked - a battle of men unwilling to realize when the other will not give up no matter what.
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#179TholossPosted 11/19/2012 3:08:59 PM
Imbackhahahaha posted...
DarkNecrid vs. Baked - a battle of men unwilling to realize when the other will not give up no matter what.


All I can say about this argument is look at my gif.
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Barrels are the founders of all evil and statues are their minions.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8tz5md55I1rbrf8mo1_500.gif
#180CaioNVPosted 11/19/2012 7:05:16 PM
http://tf2memes.tumblr.com/post/36012741795/
But, yeah, Spy-cicle annoys Pyros much more than relief them.
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Let's Blocking:
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj88/Debug_Mode/sf3_2.png