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Waited long enough...

#21TetheallaPosted 8/9/2012 10:18:41 PM
That guy that just won't stop wrote...
Next, you are asking these same questions again? It is fine to ask them, but I have given you the reason for this several times. In my opinion, what defines FF is the fact that it is different than the other RPGs out there, namely by being much, much less open. I have proven this time and time again, but you and others simply refuse to concede this, namely because I think you have no experience with the series or RPGs when they first came out.


How are the FF games any less open than: Breath of Fire, Grandia, Dragon Quest, Persona, SMT, Atelier Iris, Mana Khemia, Tales Of, Digital Devil Saga, Star Ocean, Eternal Sonata, Blue Dragon, Shadow Hearts, Chrono Trigger, Golden Sun, etc?

None of those are open from the start. They open progressively just like the FF series. I think you mean FF is less open than wRPGs.
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#22ShinGoukenPosted 8/9/2012 11:13:26 PM
sawplo posted...
Let's see what your fair and justified reasoning is. You say FF is about change. Even if you qualify that "change" to be working within the parameters of an RPG.

Hmm. What does that mean? It means nothing. That doesn't define anything. Basically you are saying that FF is an RPG. How general can you be? What you are ignoring is that there are a whole set of games in the mainline series which have defined it. People play prior games in the series, and they expect certain things.


First, working within the boundaries of the RPG genre is the rule laid down by SE, not me. I posted this in the other topic, feel free to go find it because i'm not wasting the time to do it for you. Secondly, SE also stated that they do not make RPG's to fit the "JRPG" genre, they dislike the label and the only strict rule they follow is working within the boundaries of the RPG genre. See, i'm using facts, you're just trying to force your opinion on us.

Afterall, this is part of your (and many other people's) arguments against FF13. FF13 changed a lot from prior FFs. It took away towns, made the game extremely linear, removed a lot of optional content. But, hey, it still works within the boundaries of an RPG.


We're back here again? The last time you put these words in my mouth i challenged them, or did you forget? I have many complaints with FFXIII, many being flaws in the mechanics of the game, but the main problem i have (which i have already stated the last time you made this unjustified assumption) is that FFXIII took away too many elements i think defines an RPG. Of course people define RPG's differently, which is fair, but my complaint certainly wasn't that it changed from the rest of the series, it was that it changed too much from its supposed genre.
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FFXII Perfect game Inventory at 2000+ Hours - http://youtu.be/d3UY3T3pThc
#23ShinGoukenPosted 8/9/2012 11:13:45 PM
You have no fair or justified reasoning. You simply define FF as an RPG that changes from one installment to the next. That doesn't define FF. That defines every single RPG series out there.


SE make a deliberate effort to bring something new to every installment. They want to make every FF a brand new experience for the player. This does not apply to every single RPG. Other RPG's will of course make changes, if they think something will improve sales or as technology allows for something new, but FF is a series that emphasizes change and if you cannot see this, i'm afraid you're an idiot. You can define the series however you want, but my definition is fair and supported by facts, yours is tainted with the stench of bias and being disputed by everyone because of how ridiculous it is.

What defines a series is what differentiates it from the other series out there.


Simply not true. What defines a series is something the series is known for doing. If it does something consistently, it becomes known for it and people associate the series with it. FF is known for changing, bringing a new experience with every installment and often, not being afraid to try something new. The only consistent difference FF has to other RPG's is that each installment is different. They all offer varying levels of customization, exploration and optional content, some are medieval while others are futuristic etc

That is what defines anything. FF is different because it presents an RPG that, in fact, has boundaries. Many more boundaries than a typical RPG.


What you are failing to realize is that your "boundaries" change with every installment. The series does not follow the strict rule set you seem to think it does, as i have proven in the other topic with quotes from the developers.


@Ignasia
You skipped FFV. When the 2 worlds merge, a player can head straight to the rift and onto the final dungeon of the game. But the world has opened up and there is a huge amount of optional dungeons and secrets to be found. Basically, the entire last 1/3 of the game is optional.
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FFXII Perfect game Inventory at 2000+ Hours - http://youtu.be/d3UY3T3pThc
#24Xiaoyu420Posted 8/10/2012 1:55:01 AM
People please do not this take this guy seriously or respond directly to him, he is nothing but a complete waste of time, he's been licking his wounds this whole time after getting utterly destroyed and inadvertently revealing he had to make alternate accounts to back himself up.

sawplo, im telling you now if you troll me i will show everyone exactly what happened in that thread. Im tempted to go ahead and show everyone what happened for you denying it ever still, and insulting our intelligence, you got caught, face it like a man. thats the only way you are going to garner any amount of respect which you clearly are in want of for your heavy denial.
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#25sawplo(Topic Creator)Posted 8/10/2012 8:58:59 AM
How are the FF games any less open than: Breath of Fire, Grandia, Dragon Quest, Persona, SMT, Atelier Iris, Mana Khemia, Tales Of, Digital Devil Saga, Star Ocean, Eternal Sonata, Blue Dragon, Shadow Hearts, Chrono Trigger, Golden Sun, etc?

Just like any successful thing out there, there will be copies. Other than DQ, the other series copied the successful formula of a less open RPG.

We're back here again? The last time you put these words in my mouth i challenged them, or did you forget? I have many complaints with FFXIII, many being flaws in the mechanics of the game, but the main problem i have (which i have already stated the last time you made this unjustified assumption) is that FFXIII took away too many elements i think defines an RPG.

I agree this is not a discussion of FF13. And we don't need to create one. But, regardless of the removal of so many "RPG elements", FF13 still falls within the boundaries of an RPG.

What you are failing to realize is that your "boundaries" change with every installment. The series does not follow the strict rule set you seem to think it does, as i have proven in the other topic with quotes from the developers.

It does have a stricter set of rules. Like you point out with FF13, you obviously feel that it should not remove more than some undefined number of "RPG elements." That seems to be a rule you have created.

In my opinion prior FFs kept the game more closed in, and forced story progression much more effectively because they were not so open. FF12 steers away from this by opening the world and allowing for far more exploration that does not progress the story. This goes against what all prior FFs had done before. Even you have admitted that FF12 does put gameplay at the forefront. That is what a massive open world does.

sawplo, im telling you now if you troll me i will show everyone exactly what happened in that thread. Im tempted to go ahead and show everyone what happened for you denying it ever still, and insulting our intelligence, you got caught, face it like a man. thats the only way you are going to garner any amount of respect which you clearly are in want of for your heavy denial.

Xiao, I have never created another account (with the exception of my first account which has my name). I don't need to go in some round about way to make my points, nor have I ever done so in the past. I have been posting on this board for quite some time. Why would I do something like this now?

Seriously, I had tried to consider who might have been the person to pull off that fake account like that. I suspected Shin, but, I have had several prior discussions with him. And, although, we tend to disagree a lot, I don't think he would try to derail an argument that way.

Honestly, I had considered you as a potential person. But, again, based on our prior discussion I did not think you would be the type of person to do something like that either.

You can think whatever you want. As I have stated before, it doesn't bother me at all if you all think I am an idiot. But, I will always post under this account.
#26sawplo(Topic Creator)Posted 8/10/2012 9:40:26 AM
By the way Xiao, as a funny side note, it isn't the first time something like this happened.

Years ago, when I was in the middle of an argument with someone on the xenogears board, someone actually created a Yahoo love profile with the name Sawplo on it. Then they posted a link and quoted it, trying to act like they came upon it while searching the web.

It was pretty demeaning and sneaky, and a lot of people were making fun of me for it. But, it was not me. To tell you the truth, I give those people credit. I do not even comprehend how someone can come up with the ideas to do stuff like this. It does show some pretty slick planning ability.

That time on xenogears, it did completely derail the argument. And even a year later in different posts, some people would bring it up. I definitely think there were several people who believed, or at least wanted to believe that it was really my love profile. In the end, I view it as innocent fun. This is the internet, after all.

Do not underestimate how devious people can be here. I am by far one of the least slick people when it comes to the internet. I pretty much try to be as direct as possible. I don't get into these arguments to make people mad or have fun. I actually listen to what you guys say, and though you may not change everything I think, many of you have made me reconsider, reevaluate, and even change some of the things I think.
#27ShinGoukenPosted 8/10/2012 11:30:27 AM
sawplo posted...
I agree this is not a discussion of FF13. And we don't need to create one. But, regardless of the removal of so many "RPG elements", FF13 still falls within the boundaries of an RPG.


It barely qualifies in my opinion.

It does have a stricter set of rules. Like you point out with FF13, you obviously feel that it should not remove more than some undefined number of "RPG elements." That seems to be a rule you have created.


Sawplo, how many times must i remind you. SE stated that they work within the boundaries of the RPG genre. It is not my rule, it is theirs. You are the one who insists they must work within the JRPG genre, which means that you are the one creating rules.

In my opinion prior FFs kept the game more closed in, and forced story progression much more effectively because they were not so open. FF12 steers away from this by opening the world and allowing for far more exploration that does not progress the story. This goes against what all prior FFs had done before. Even you have admitted that FF12 does put gameplay at the forefront. That is what a massive open world does.


Oh god, we know, you've only told us 15 and half billion times. FFXII did put more emphasis on gameplay, just as FFX put more emphasis on story. But these two are examples of the series taking their gamestyle in two opposite extremes. FFIV and FFV did the same thing. It's nothing new buddy, that is your main problem here. You think that FFXII is the first in the series to put a heavier emphasis on gameplay, when in reality, every FF has had varying levels of customization, exploration, story emphasis etc.

Xiao, I have never created another account (with the exception of my first account which has my name). I don't need to go in some round about way to make my points, nor have I ever done so in the past. I have been posting on this board for quite some time. Why would I do something like this now?


C'mon buddy, who're you trying to fool?

Seriously, I had tried to consider who might have been the person to pull off that fake account like that. I suspected Shin, but, I have had several prior discussions with him. And, although, we tend to disagree a lot, I don't think he would try to derail an argument that way.


Don't bring me down to your level.

Look, as entertaining as i find you to be, you're not trying hard enough. You came here and made a new topic because you did not want to "back down from making your point". You made your point and no one agrees. What are you still doing here? What are you trying to achieve? You've barely added anything new to your argument, you've only failed hard at trying to challenge our arguments. You won't change anyones mind which is the only reason i can honestly think of why you would be so persistant in challenging us. Why don't you just accept that your opinion is not and will not be aknowledged as having any merit. Seriously, this debate is old and i promise you, at this point, people are only here to see what rubbish you'll come up with next.
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FFXII Perfect game Inventory at 2000+ Hours - http://youtu.be/d3UY3T3pThc
#28sawplo(Topic Creator)Posted 8/10/2012 2:56:25 PM
It barely qualifies in my opinion.

As it still is an RPG, even if just "barely" according to you, then it operates within the boundaries of an RPG.

You've barely added anything new to your argument, you've only failed hard at trying to challenge our arguments.

I am not trying to challenge your arguments. Whoever said I was? In fact, as I have said numerous times before, I can see how your arguments are justified from your point of view. No one just randomly forms an opinion. You, obviously, have an opinion on what FF12 is. But, interestingly, you have already said before that you don't regard yourself as a fan of the series.

So, you are not a fan of the series, but you like FF12? What does that mean? Think about it. By saying you are not a fan of the series, you are indicating there are some consistent elements throughout the series that you don't really enjoy. Yet, you do like FF12...

If the general series is not to your liking, but FF12 is, that implies that FF12 did something different than the rest of the series. Could it be the open world and all its offerings of exploration and gameplay? I think it is. Through your own words, you actually complement my argument that there is something that SE changed in FF12 that was not normal for the series itself.

You are not a fan of the series, but you are a fan of FF12. Think about that. That statement about you almost proves what I have been saying about FF12.

In the end Shin, I am not trying to change anyone's opinion. Nor am I even contesting your arguments. I always said it was only my opinion that FF12 was a serious, though not complete, detraction from the series. It was other people here who seem to insist I cannot have this opinion.

Oh god, we know, you've only told us 15 and half billion times

Funny. I thought you said I kept changing my argument...
#29Xiaoyu420Posted 8/11/2012 12:16:48 AM
Pathetic, you are wasting your breath trying to convince me. If you didnt care what i thought yo wouldnt be having to lie about it now would you? You keep on lying, it only shows everyone how you are completely full of crap and not to be trusted or given the time of day. I doubt your age, i doubt you were on "vacation" i doubt everything youve ever said as truth because you are a proven liar.

You made an alternate account, timbor45 To ask me to give you a break and try to give respect and credit to your "age and experience"

If you lie otherwise and dont own up to it now, you can be assured i will

1.bring it up every single time i see you
2.show everyone exactly what happened in that post Every time as well

own up to it and youll never hear about it again.
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#30GalaxilliPosted 8/11/2012 12:19:54 AM
Not taking sides, but I noticed a couple of things:

sawplo has better spelling, grammar, and punctuation than ShinGouken.

ShinGouken has called sawplo stupid and an idiot, but sawplo has not done the same to ShinGouken.

As an outside observer, it seems that sawplo wants to have a discussion on how Final Fantasy XII was more different from previous games than previous games. With the exception of ignasia7, who is positively contributing to the discussion, and some others, it seems that the people here are insulting not only sawplo's arguments, but sawplo as well.