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Anyone else here HATE what FF is turning into?

#121DViper97Posted 10/2/2012 6:53:02 PM
I will expand on this later, but I agree with most of what Jolos said.

XIII is absolutely, positively, not the first, only, nor likely the last numbered FF to omit features (or certain ideas) from previous games. If you look at the path this series has traveled since it's inception, it's plain to see that each entry has either tried to build upon a an aspect of, or all of, a foundation set in a prior entry, or try something wholly unique (often to a mixed reception and/ or results [remember FF II?]).

One of the defining characteristics of FF has been that each development team, nay each game, has given us a different perspective, a different interpretation of FF. XII is not all that dissimilar from XIII in that they both are pretty significant departures from what many expected of the series.

I will say this though, although the first 6 entries are somewhat similar to each other, and despite how the number of changes the PS1 era brought, everything from the PS2 era onwards has brought forth a heretofore unprecedented level of constant, significantly different takes on FF.
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"I would not trust a lump of rubbish made by you lunatics any more than I would trust one of you lunatics!" --Prince Trion
#122ShinGoukenPosted 10/3/2012 12:52:36 AM(edited)
JolosGhost posted...
The argument isn't about graphics, it's about how much space on the disc is dedicated to a particular *aspect* of the graphics...


The number and size of the maps is one way to add more content into a game, but FFX shows that a game with fewer and smaller maps can still offer more than what FFXIII had to offer. FFXIII has pretty graphics, a solid battle system (debatable) and an abundence of cutscenes... this is bare minimum of what people expect of not just FF's but in all RPGs/JRPGs. Having a good story and solid fighting is the very least anyone expects from a game they are expected to pay £40+ for. It's where you start from.

FFXIII does something FFX does, which is take very small sample sizes of all the described areas and paints the backgrounds with the beauty of said areas...


I have no problem with this. My argument isn't that FFXIII should have had more or bigger areas. My argument is that if this is the route you are going down then it leads to less gameplay because there are less places to go and ultimately, less enemies to encounter (as seen in both FFX and FFXIII). FFX still managed to offer sidequests/minigames/puzzles/collectables etc. FFX had much less to offer than FFXII, but it had something outside of areas and battles, of which there are half the amount compared to other titles.


Furthermore, the problem isn't the number of discs or what they 'couldn't finish', it's about development time... Should I complain? Probably not...


You should complain because you deserve more for your money. You wouldn't pay the same price for a dvd movie if that movie was only 20 minutes long, regardless if the story and special effects were good. This is why you pay more for a t.v series consisting of 20+ episodes, you're paying for the content, not how pretty the content is. As for development time, i think 5 years is long enough. Not only is that double the time most games spend in development, it's also the same time FFXII spent in development so this is a poor excuse.

This is a flawed argument. At every step of the way, Final Fantasy has largely been about graphics...


It's not flawed at all. Previous FF's may have utilized the best graphical engines that were available at the time, but the graphics never took priority over the amount of content in the game. I remember reading an interview with someone when the game was due to be released where they said the graphics team spent 3 days polishing a rock that would be on screen for less than 5 seconds as a player ran past it... assuming i remember correcly and that this is true, this is the reason why content is missing. A priority on graphics that held back what this game should have been.

That's not half of FFXIII, though. FFXII needed that many monsters because the game was largely about cutting a swath through armies...


Not true. FFXII has more original monster designs that offer unique battles than FFXIII does. FFXIII has 60+ missions which should mean 60+ unique battles with unique enemies. But most of these missions aren't only pallette swapped monsters, they are exact copies that behave exactly the same as each other and simply have higher stats or are repeated enemies grouped together. Why do you defend this when you should have had 60+ unique monsters. Not only that but why only 60? Why not 160? If the battle system is so enjoyable for you, why would you settle for less battles? You should have had more and i think you know this.
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FFXII Perfect game Inventory at 2200+ Hours - http://youtu.be/0dJ2FaiS-ro
#123ShinGoukenPosted 10/3/2012 12:49:19 AM
Just because it has half the monsters of FFXII doesn't mean the battle system is lacking something; it's not a story or a game designed to facilitate that kind of gameplay.


It doesn't mean the battle system is lacking, but your content is minimal. We're talking about more content which could mean more marks, a battle arena at save points or other areas with new monsters. If you're happy with fewer monsters (and thus fewer battles and less content), fine, that's great for you. But i need more than half the available (unique) monsters/battles XII had to offer.

FFXIII didn't necessarily "improve" on things. It merely did them differently. FFX was criticised for being too linear so FFXII "improved" it...


Every FF is not about improving the last. Every FF strives to be a different experience than the last and often, the type of FF you get is a reflection on the team making it (hence why FFX and FFXIII are similar in execution) FFXII was made by a different team to FFX and FFXIII and that is the reason for the major differences, it has nothing to do with FFXII trying to improve on FFX... if that were the case then they must have considered XII a massive failure to go back to the FFX formula (which they don't, especially if you believe what information we have about FFXV).

What's more, a lot of what was left out of FFXIII was not necessarily put into FFXIII-2; they took those scrapped ideas and redesigned them into a new game. People have been assuming FFXIII-2 would be FFXIII's second-disc when Toriyama made the mistake of telling people there was enough content left over for another game. It doesn't mean he copy/pasted it


Personally, i don't believe this "removed content" ever existed. (Quote: In regard to the rumoured cut content, we feel it was taken out of context. There was content that were Ďideasí that didnít make the final content) Ideas? That sir was a deliberate misdirection by SE, claiming all this content was removed so that people would buy the game expecting it to be bursting with content. If such content existed, it would have been made available as DLC. Their garbage excuse (the game is complete as is) is a joke. As if SE would pass up an opportunity to make some extra cash.

And there are good reasons for the FFXIII levelling caps...


Balancing the game is fine. But the game still needs a way to be aproachable to any kind of player. Less skilled players are punished in that they might not be able to progress any further without a means to level past the cap. More skilled players have less freedom in regards to how they approach the game. Grinders can no longer power level. This system is fine for you, but you are only one type of gamer. FF has always catered to certain gamer types, of which most have not been considered for this game.
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FFXII Perfect game Inventory at 2200+ Hours - http://youtu.be/0dJ2FaiS-ro
#124ShinGoukenPosted 10/3/2012 12:50:04 AM
This still falls under the flawed ideology that if an FF doesn't have everything the previous titles had and more, it's a failure. They don't see the need for minigames because everybody and their grandmother whined about how bad the minigames in FFX were. So, they went to extremes and just eliminated them all entirely.


They were removed to save time and money. Minigames serve a purpose. They break up that short formula of Walk-Battle-Cutscene. FFX had puzzles, sidequests and minigames to break up that formula, FFXIII has nothing. If fighting battles starts to get a bit tedious, you have a puzzle in a temple, some blitzball at save points, or towns to explore etc. In FFXIII you are forced down a narrow path fighting preset battles with nothing to break it up. They weren't left out because they thought this would be better (unless they're clinical morons) they left them out because they blew their budget and development time on tweaking graphics that would only be visable for 5 seconds as you run past it.

DViper97 posted...
XIII is absolutely, positively, not the first, only, nor likely the last numbered FF to omit features (or certain ideas) from previous games.


You're entirely missing the point (which i can't blame you for because most of what JolosGhost had to say also missed the point. The point isn't the ommiting of features or scrapping old formulas for new ideas, it is the level of content that is available. It doesn't matter if areas are half the size or if their are half as many, it doesn't matter if their are half the number of battles to fight or half the amount of weapons to equip. FFX had less than FFXII in all these areas too. But FFX still had a respectable amount of content. FF as a series has always offered a decent level of content. Except FFXIII which gave you bare minimun and your love for the game blinds you from the fact that there should have been more.
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FFXII Perfect game Inventory at 2200+ Hours - http://youtu.be/0dJ2FaiS-ro
#125Ecclesiastes273Posted 10/3/2012 2:07:43 AM
On the topic of XII somehow leaving out classes, I really, really don't know what to think of people who couldn't figure out how to specialize people with the original License Board.

Seriously?
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Son.
#126YoKoMogPosted 10/3/2012 6:22:52 AM
I'll leave Jolo to reply to ShinGouken instead.

What's important is everyone needs to understand about XIII's compliance and NOT a failure as a numbered FF game. It's my opinion.

Shin did told me about omitting some final fantasy elements, but they're not the main ones. Like COD omitting the maps, omitting the gun perception etc was the main elements - obviously. Like Tekken reducing it's character roster point, removing the wall capabilities etc was also main elements. But things like sidequests etc are minor elements of a Final Fantasy game. That's it. That's why I NEVER DID criticized XII in the first place, despite of it different:

- omitting Cactuars and Tonberries
- the old style of battle, NO-MOVEMENT-DURING-BATTLE (but this was a main element)
- omitting Weapon catalysts
- Earth wise story (real conflicts in the world these days - it's just the Nethicites and Shards that made it "look" Final Fantasy-ish)
- having the License Board combinations to equip/learn such spell/equipment/accessory
- useless Espers
- Gambit system

it's only my opinion. But I still love XII upto now.
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#127ShinGoukenPosted 10/3/2012 7:15:40 AM
^Like i said, having a good story and solid battle system is where you start from. You don't get a 10/10 for getting that right, that is the absolute minimum we expect.

Just like from COD the minimum we expect is a campaign mode with a story and satisfying gameplay and online capabilities. Having additional maps/guns/perks/kill streaks etc are there to enhance your experience and give you more. Same with Tekken, bare minimum is a handful of characters and solid battle mechanics. Hidden unlockables and a list of additional characters are there to give you more and enhance your experience.

There are two types of strategy a gaming company will use to make money -

The first is to pack their games full of content and give the player everything they need for a satisying experience that helps them enjoy their game as fully as possible. They also patch the game for free when flaws are discovered, fairly release DLC in a way that is cost effective and convenient (ie only buy the character you want, not having to buy them bundled together) and overall try to produce the best game they can.

The other way is to avoid spending all that extra time and money and only give the player bare minimum. Then you market the game in such a way that the player feels they are getting more than they actually are (By showing Gran Pulse in the trailers and telling fans all this spare content was cut etc). In the case of Marvel vs Capcom 3, they removed ALL additional game modes and sat on about 20 characters less than MvC2 while also refusing to patch the balancing. They then release Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 with 12 new characters, 1 new gamemode (spectator mode <_< wtf) and patched it. So now people have to pay another £40 to buy the Ultimate version which btw is still lacking in content compared to MvC2. S*** like this needs to stop and FFXIII is guilty.

I believe FFXIII tried to be a great game and may have intended a ton more content than what was available in the final product. It may just be a case of complications that forced them over their budget or past the allocated development time. Whatever the reason, SE decided to mislead people into thinking they were getting more, and spouted a bunch of nonsense crap to justify why the game is the way it is. They needed the game to sell copies and they'll say whatever they think will make the game sell more.
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FFXII Perfect game Inventory at 2200+ Hours - http://youtu.be/0dJ2FaiS-ro
#128sawploPosted 10/3/2012 8:13:56 AM(edited)
But you should acknowledge that this is less than what you expect from a FF. No FF to date has had so little to offer and i highly doubt any FFXIII fan will turn around and say "No don't worry SE, we don't need any more sidequests, it has enough. Minigames you say? Nah, we don't need any of those. What's that? You want to add another 6 new areas as optional/postgame content? Get that s*** out of here".

LOL, Shin. Hmmm. So, let me get this straight. Some time ago, I said that true FF fans would not enjoy FF12. And, you, as well as many others, claimed I have no right to state what other FF fans enjoy about the series.

But, now, you go ahead and make the statement above. So, apparently you think you represent all FF fans. You are such a hypocrite. Sorry, bud. As I have said before, I have been a fan of the series from the beginning, and I would easily agree to less content, no mini-games, no optional content. I say, "Get that S--- out of here."

Content, Content, Content. We get it, Shin. You love content. This is evidenced by your incredible "FF XII perfect game." That is fine. No one is taking this away from you. That is awesome that you can get that much out of a game and truly enjoy it. But, that is you. Get it? You are the one who should acknowledge that you are an extreme. You should acknowledge that there are many, many gamers out there who simply don't have the time nor desire to have all this content in a game.

For us, content has nothing to do with what an FF game is about. For us, FF is about the story, the characters, the JRPG charm that separates it from all those open world RPGs out there. I would take 10 more cutscenes over 50 more "unique monsters," 5 more optional dungeons, and 5 minigames. That optional stuff simply doesn't do anything for the story, which is why a lot of people play FF.

On the topic of XII somehow leaving out classes, I really, really don't know what to think of people who couldn't figure out how to specialize people with the original License Board.

Seriously?


What you ignore, Ecclesiastes, is that a lot of people just do what the game tells them to do. That is how we play games. People like you and Shin really just don't get it. I will turn your question back on you.

Do you really think that most gamers are as hardcore as any of you? You really believe this? Seriously?

EDIT: Just so I am clear, Shin. When I say "content", I am interpreting this in the way you seem to use the word. As it pertains to gameplay. You want more stuff to "do." Minigames, optional areas, more unique monsters to kill, etc. I am not talking about content as it pertains to how much story is packed in the game.
#129ShinGoukenPosted 10/3/2012 8:07:29 AM
^I have no desire to debate an intolerable deceiving and desperate individual such as yourself. Go back to the shadows, we thought we were rid of you after your last stunt.

I don't claim to represent FF fans, i'm speaking for the majority of every type of gamer. Gamers like you are an exception. Even so called casual gamers need more than 4 guns for their FPS or 6 characters in their fighter.

You've got me all figured out havn't you? This is the first and only perfect game i have ever played and it in no way represents me as a gamer. Do you even know what other games i enjoy? Or how long i play them before moving on to another? My complaints at an empty game are valid in this generation of games, where people expect more for their hard earned money. You want your simple NES games back because your stuck in the past. Well guess what? Companies don't cater to part time gamers like you. If they did, every game this gen would be as empty as FFXIII was.
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FFXII Perfect game Inventory at 2200+ Hours - http://youtu.be/0dJ2FaiS-ro
#130JolosGhostPosted 10/3/2012 11:40:47 AM
I just want to state I don't want to be lumped in with the people who are starting a s***-storm. I'm just trying to have a logical debate. I respect you, ShinGouken and think you're a cool guy.

That said, I'm gonna try and be minimalist about my quotes to just save posting space and time.

Having a good story and solid fighting is the very least anyone expects from a game they are expected to pay £40+ for. It's where you start from.


I think this part of our debate is going to go dead in the water. The whole quote read like you don't think FFXIII had enough of a launching point (you specifically left out that it had a good story). I happen to think Toriyama's take on FFXIII's narrative was sublime, but this aspect of our argument will just result in us butting heads until the weaker skull collapses.

FFX had much less to offer than FFXII, but it had something outside of areas and battles, of which there are half the amount compared to other titles.


Because that's what they were going for. Again, not every game has minigames. I would die of joygasm if every game had Chocobo Hot and Cold because it's frankly the most substantial mini-game any FF has ever had....but we're arguing semantics here. Minigames went dead mostly because people don't want them anymore.

FFXIII-2 had a reasonable time and they didn't complain at all about deadline restrictions, and look at the minigames that game had. Slots. Poker. Chocobo Racing. While the latter is fun for about half an hour, the others aren't. I enjoyed Poker simply because I had a faster way to farm Elixirs, Librascopes and Phoenix Blood.

Lastly, FFXIII's narrative didn't really call for minigames. It was a tunnel because you were on the run the entire time. You were avoiding PSICOM or you were challenging fate; there was always a mission charging ahead, and not enough good reasons to lay low. On Gran Pulse it didn't matter as much because they left you for dead on the "tainted earth"; and since there wasn't much semblance of human life there, the best detraction was with hunts.

And you say Palette swapped like it's a bad thing, but FFXII's original monsters are really palette swaps with new heads or horns. FFXIII did the same thing. Yes, it was a greater offender with palette swaps, but the marks *DID* have access to new behaviours. Every Behemoth behaved slightly differently, some healed, some didn't, some reset the stagger, others didn't. Some cleaved, others didn't.

You should complain because you deserve more for your money. You wouldn't pay the same price for a dvd movie if that movie was only 20 minutes long, regardless if the story and special effects were good. This is why you pay more for a t.v series consisting of 20+ episodes, you're paying for the content, not how pretty the content is. As for development time, i think 5 years is long enough. Not only is that double the time most games spend in development, it's also the same time FFXII spent in development so this is a poor excuse.


I'm going to point-form my examples of why I disagree with you so hard here:
- A 2-hour movie is not better than a 1-hour movie because it is longer or has more in it. It's what they do with that movie that makes it better.
- Breaking Bad is the best series I've ever watched and in 5 seasons there have been 54 episodes. There will only be 62 in total when the series is over. I would rather pay $36 for its first 7-episode season on Blu-Ray than I would for Dexter's 13-episode first-season, let alone pay half for Dexter's first-season on DVD.
-Immersion is an IMPORTANT factor to me and many gamers. Yes, I can enjoy pixelated classics. I love them. But a game as cinematic and beautiful as FFXIII was well worth the money I paid.
-I bought the FFXII special edition. It was a waste of money, and the guide was awful. I got ripped off. The extras were pointless. I would have been better off buying vanilla.