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Anyone else here HATE what FF is turning into?

#141ShinGoukenPosted 10/3/2012 2:53:50 PM
sawplo posted...
Btw you have yet to contribute to the discussion. Trying to debunk my argument by making claims about me doesn't count

Shin, your whole argument is based on your assumption that optional content doesn't bother anyone.

That is a subjective premise and why you are wrong. If you try to claim it shouldn't bother anyone, then it becomes even more subjective and is even more wrong.

We can discuss the logic of the arguments and both be wrong. I haven't been trying to debunk your argument. I thought it was obvious that this was more of a subjective discussion.


You and I have danced this dance several times before. What makes you think i want to go down that road again? We all know where it leads. It leads to you stood on your own as everyone else disagrees with you, and then a fake account or two later to try and give merit to your arguments. I'm not debating with you, i have no respect for you
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FFXII Perfect game Inventory at 2200+ Hours - http://youtu.be/0dJ2FaiS-ro
#142sawploPosted 10/3/2012 6:15:01 PM
Apparently, you're wrong. I don't stand alone. Jolo is saying the exact same thing I have said to you about optional content.

I suppose he is a fake account too. That accusation is unfounded and you know it. It was obvious at the end that there was at least one person on your side trying to mimick me.

The problem is that most of you refuse to see FF12 with anything but blind ignorance.

I really enjoy FF13, but I don't ever claim that you can't see it as a piece of garbage. I have agreed consistently that your criticisms are valid from your perspective. Where you fail is your attempt to imply that your criticisms are valid from any perspective.

People who don't need all that extra content are simply not going to agree with you. Just because you want content, content, content in your games, does not mean that the majority of gamers do.

I think the evidence is actually stacked against you. The average gamer, which is what makes up most of the consumer base, does not need optional content.
#143Ecclesiastes273Posted 10/3/2012 6:24:41 PM
sawplo posted...
I think the evidence is actually stacked against you. The average gamer, which is what makes up most of the consumer base, does not need optional content.


yay, more everyman bull****
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Son.
#144ShinGoukenPosted 10/3/2012 11:45:31 PM
sawplo posted...
Shin, your whole argument is based on your assumption


lol you say my argument is based on assumption and then you say this...

The average gamer, which is what makes up most of the consumer base, does not need optional content.


lmao, really Sawplo. Really

My assumption is not without reason. I make this assumption based on the current gaming market, where the vast majority of gaming companies pack content into their games which can only be, as you say, to appeal to the masses. As soon as something offers bare minimum (like FFXIII or MvC2) consumers kick up.

What are you basing your assumptions on, other than personal preference and a desperate need to justify your opinion?
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FFXII Perfect game Inventory at 2200+ Hours - http://youtu.be/0dJ2FaiS-ro
#145JolosGhostPosted 10/4/2012 1:03:31 PM
I'm going to stop with quotes now. 3-post retorts are too long. lol

I will concede that, yes, endgame money making in FFXIII is BULLS***. I agree with that completely. That could have been fixed entirely by not being as meticulous about the dismantling concept. They did too good a job of making sure you never dismantle for a profit after spending the materials to get a weapon to level 99. FFXIII needs a broken money mechanic. BADLY. But this also stems from them shutting down the prospect of a DLC Titan Fight + Dungeon. They couldn't make a fight with something THAT big work. And the Atlas fight in FFXIII-2 SOOO didn't make up for it. It did, but at the same time it didn't. It was awesome, but I know he's nowhere near the same size. But if that's how they interpreted the Titan Fight anyway, I'd rather NOT have paid for it. And the Coliseum DLC ultimately ended up being disappointing towards the end. Valfodr and Gilgamesh were crap fights.

I do, however, indeed believe that FFXIII has more replay value than FFXII. But not because it's somehow "better". It's very cutscene and story heavy. FFXII is too, but it's got a gameplay mechanic that lets you explore what's there longer. You can't do as much with what's in FFXIII's world, so the desire is to go back and learn it again like it's a new experience.

Crystarium, as blase as it is, is somehow compelling, visually. The License Board, while mimicking freedom ends up being kind of a mess, and you're stuck trying to make difficult long-term decisions, or homogenizing. To me, that simplistic, visually stimulating through-line makes FFXIII worth playing over and over and over because I can't "unlearn" my abilities and I don't have to think too hard about that. The only time I have to think is when I'm taking too long to kill an enemy and need to rework my Paradigm Deck - all of the strategy is on the fly.

Very few RPGs have ever had an on-the-fly mentality except for two of Toriyama's biggest works (FFX-2 and FFXIII - I won't even put FFXIII-2 on the list, because I think it was a bigger step backward than forward). I like that 40 levels of development don't result in me going, "AW S***! I completely screwed myself over by making the wrong choice!" Granted, it's more like that in FFXIII-2, but that's one major reason I like FFXIII better - it's why I think that the Call of Duty style of on-rails RPG storytelling and battle streamlining works well.

A longer game with more reasons to simply continue on than restart result, at least to me, in wanting to start over, but being deterred by how much time I've invested. FFXII does this to me every single time. And I think the open-world concept works better in a game where doing everything ISN'T a tangible and reasonable expectation - as in an actuall MMO - just do what's relevant to your class in the same amount of time and you can have a brand new experience each time you roll a new one. Nobody wants to do all the same Raids and Instances with every single class unless they're one of those hardcore endgamers who calls all casual players "scrubs".

Anyway, I'm being tangential.

As for your question, yes, I could live with 18 episodes of Breaking Bad as a mini-series. There'd be more montages and it would pass through the 1.25 years it's passed through thus far a lot more often between episodes, but if that was their goal, I'm sure they could achieve it.

But it's such a different show to the type of story told on television right now that I wouldn't *know* what I'm missing.

With FFXIII-2, I finally do know what I missed out on with FFXIII, and frankly, I prefer the minimalist approach with that battle system and story. Non-linearity failed hard with what they had in mind. It's not the same type of project Matsuno and Itou conjured up, and it shows.

But it also shows that Toriyama and Kitase make better linear games while Matsuno and Itou make better open-world games.
#146sawploPosted 10/5/2012 3:32:49 PM
Shin, your whole argument is based on your assumption

lol you say my argument is based on assumption and then you say this...


I didn't criticize that your argument was based on assumption. Your quote cut the sentence off. Every argument is based on assumptions. I criticized your assumption that optional content does not or should not bother other gamers.

But, more than criticizing the assumption itself, I criticized that you felt you had some objective conclusion in your argument when you asked me to "debunk it."

By showing that your assumption was subjective as I did above, I proved you had no objective conclusion to debunk.

As soon as something offers bare minimum (like FFXIII or MvC2) consumers kick up.

What are you basing your assumptions on, other than personal preference and a desperate need to justify your opinion?


Again, your assumption is subjective. FF13 apparently is not the bare minimum for Jolo. It wasn't the bare minimum for me. And it wasn't the bare minimum for a lot of other people. You are the one insisting it is the bare minimum. You are the one insisting that games need optional content in order to be enjoyed.

See, you have this all wrong. I have always admitted that my argument is only my opinion. I have never stated once that I am speaking for the majority or anyone else other than myself. I have opinions on what the average gamer enjoys, but I admit its just my opinion. It is simply based on my experience and interaction with other gamers over the last 30 some years.

You are the one who is attempting to justify your opinion. You are the one who wants to somehow prove that optional content is objectively good for everyone. You are the one who refuses to believe that FF13 could be perceived as a good game by anyone.
#147ShinGoukenPosted 10/7/2012 1:46:02 AM
JolosGhost posted...
I'm going to stop with quotes now. 3-post retorts are too long. lol


Agreed =) We're inches away from going in circles now anyway ^_^

I will concede that, yes, endgame money making in FFXIII is BULLS***. I agree with that completely. That could have been fixed entirely by not being as meticulous about the dismantling concept. They did too good a job of making sure you never dismantle for a profit after spending the materials to get a weapon to level 99. FFXIII needs a broken money mechanic. BADLY.


The first mistake they made was making components purchasable in the first place. If enemies had a reasonable drop percentage, that would be your primary source for components and they could be sold for a more resonable amount of Gil.

This is another one of my complaints. Battles have a single goal of winning. Previous FF's had capture/battle/poach/morph, blue magicks to learn, and items to steal/mug/bribe. You actually needed the gil/exp/drop items from battles unlike FFXIII where post game there is only one single viable source for all three of your needs. 5 more new and interesting monsters with better CP,item,money drops could have made all that tedious end game farming a lot more enjoyable.

so the desire is to go back and learn it again like it's a new experience.


Except it is the exact same experience twice and FFXII is a completley different experience every time. It's fair that you find more replay value in a game you like more, but something that offers a different experience every time you play will always have more replay value than something that remains the same each and every time.

Crystarium, as blase as it is, is somehow compelling, visually


The crystarium is the practical joke of FFXIII <_<. My problem with this, is that there is no reason for it to even exist. If it is a set number of stat points given at a set time (achieved with preset battles) then it's nothing more than a standard "level up" system that makes you go and do it manually. Why? Why is that necessary? It's the illusion of choice. You think by choosing which role you want to level that it actually makes any difference to the battles you're fighting? It doesn't. The battles in that chapter are designed to be beaten with what you'll currently have access to, and you'll max each role by the end of every chapter anyway. It's a waste of space from start to finish.

(I should probably mention, just incase you bring up the Sphere grid, that, living in the UK, we had access to the Expert Grid so didn't run into any of the above problems)

With FFXIII-2, I finally do know what I missed out on with FFXIII, and frankly, I prefer the minimalist approach with that battle system and story.


This isn't at all what i'm implying. My argument is not that FFXIII should have been more like FFXII and be a wide open, non linear and gargantuan game. My argument is that FFXIII had too little to satisfy a large portion, if not the vast majority of the fans of the series.

A dozen more post game enemies could have helped with that tedious end game farming. A minigame at save points would have given players a chance to break up the walk-battle-cutscene formula. A weapon growth system that utilized more of the individual components (so that 99% of them don't become obsolete making them pointless to even exist) that also allowed for different growth paths to at least offer a small amount of actual customization (even FFX managed to achieve this with customizable weapons and armour). Basically, more could have been added that would not compromize the quality of the game but would add to it, whilst maintaining the approach the developers were aiming for.
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FFXII Perfect game Inventory at 2200+ Hours - http://youtu.be/0dJ2FaiS-ro
#148ShinGoukenPosted 10/7/2012 2:03:15 AM
sawplo posted...
I didn't criticize that your argument was based on assumption. Your quote cut the sentence off. Every argument is based on assumptions. I criticized your assumption that optional content does not or should not bother other gamers.


First, you certainly did criticize that my argument was based on assumption, the second half of that quote goes on to list the specific assumption i made. Secondly, not all arguments are based on assumptions. What an incredibley stupid thing to say. Thirdly, assumptions can be made for many reasons. You make your assumptions based on a a desperate need to justify your opinions, I make my assumptions based on the long history of videogames and their current strategies in todays market.

Again, your assumption is subjective. FF13 apparently is not the bare minimum for Jolo. It wasn't the bare minimum for me. And it wasn't the bare minimum for a lot of other people. You are the one insisting it is the bare minimum. You are the one insisting that games need optional content in order to be enjoyed.


Both the history of the FF franchise, and it's future are against you. Not just FF. Almost any franchise you can think of has evolved in the same direction. More, more and more. FPS's pack more maps and weapons in their games, Sports games pack in tonnes of customization options, sidescrollers like mario pack in more power-ups and more levels, fighters pack in more game modes and more characters, and RPG's have always had sidequests, minigames and optional/post game content. FFXIII is the exception and so are you.

See, you have this all wrong. I have always admitted that my argument is only my opinion. I have never stated once that I am speaking for the majority or anyone else other than myself.


Son, you said this on this very same page...

The average gamer, which is what makes up most of the consumer base, does not need optional content.


Take your trolling somewhere else. No one can honestly be this stupid.
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FFXII Perfect game Inventory at 2200+ Hours - http://youtu.be/0dJ2FaiS-ro
#149YoKoMogPosted 10/7/2012 5:10:35 AM
I want to make some popcorn and eat it while I post something in this thread. =))

Purchasing components was meant for upgrading your weapons and accessories, not to make GIL. Sure, there are a few money-making components when you sell them (Platinum Ingot etc), but that's post game. The Libra screen lets you see the normal and RARE drops of the component when you try obtaining one. Furthermore, drops in XIII was solely for the GIL making, and purchasing components was for equipment-upgrading. It's not purchase-components-and-sell-them-again. Each component comes with a EXP level to fulfill the Tier requirement. That's new right? I don't see why there's complain over this one - considering back in XII there's this thingy flawed in making the Tournesol. Yeah, selling loot to obtain loot and selling that obtained loot too. Lol. High Arcana + Wargod's Band + Soul Powder to obtain an Empyreal Soul - which is also a loot and it will be also sold so you can obtain the Tournesol through Bazaar. Good thing I'm very patient.

Battles have a single goal of winning eh? Battles in XIII net you to have common/rare components ALMOST the same time. The Adamantoise/Long Gui is one of the best way to obtain a Trap, Mission 24/Mission 59/Cactuars net you components that nets you high gil, Behemoth King for CP points, Mission 55 for Growth Egg, Mission 7 for early Hermes Sandals, Titan's Trials for rare weapons, Chocobo hunting treasure for components and Ribbon, specific pre-post battle gil making and Etc. I don't know why you said that all requirements are on a single viable source only. AND, also, dismantling Tier 3 * weapons makes your Trap hunting better - not just farming the Tortoise.

Crystarium has a stage lock, meaning what you have access is you're only at that. Not unlike FFXII you actually get 1/2 of the game easy by getting the Zodiac Spear as early after the events at Raithwall and hacking your way with easy golden amulets/embroidered tippets. Yeah, tbh, I finished XII with 122333. It's very easy. And yeah, take note that you get Rubber Suit/Crown of Laurels also after the events of Raithwall - making the game look very easy to finish. In XIII you're locked with abilities that you need to take use of in a certain timeframe,

Take your trolling somewhere else. No one can honestly be this stupid.
- see, who's starting the name calling in between you and sawplo?

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@sawplo, good job menz. I didn't actually thought of that (your posts) when arguing with Shin. I completely got tired of saying the XIII concept itself as a standard argument. I'm actually going in a roller coaster, lol.
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#150verylatebloomerPosted 10/7/2012 6:03:42 AM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]