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Let's count the number of ways the Bazaar system fails so hard in this game

#1DrLight66Posted 12/4/2012 2:45:25 AM
1) There's no explanation in the game as to what type of loot you need to make a new bazaar item appear, with one of the very very few exceptions that i read in the bestiary being the "ivory pole"

2) There's no explanation in the game as to how much of any given loot you need to make a new bazaar item appear

3) There's no explanation in the game that when a certain type of loot is used and a new bazaar item appears, that the "sold" counter for that type of loot drops back to ZERO even if you oversold the number of loot to make the item

4) Because of #1 and #2, you have no idea if farming against an enemy even matters and/or when you do get those rare loots, if you've even made enough and/or if they'll even end up getting you anything beyond gil.

5) The requirements for unlocking the different monographs in the bazaar is just stupid. Having to talk to a magic shop owner 30 times or reading a hunt board 25 times or whatever to unlock a monograph is just dumb and doesn't even make any sense.

6) The monographs are all given the same generic title in the bazaar shop, so if you don't have enough gil to purchase them all and/or multiple monographs appear in the list, if you don't want the sucky scholar monograph that gives you rare loot from golems and such, you have to guess which monograph to buy, then reload your save file if you chose the one you didn't want.

7) For several rare pieces of loot, such as the moon ring to create the sagittarius bow, you have to, unless you get lucky, spend an hour either reloading your save file, or bouncing back and forth between teleport crystals to fight the wyrm at the peak of the mosphoran highwastes where you fought the optional esper, since it's the only enemy to drop that loot and it only appears once per when you enter the entire highwaste, which is inconsistent with the rest of the game in how it spawns enemies and is totally idiotic. So in an hour of play, you fight the wyrm for about 15 minutes of the time and spend the other 45 minutes just reloading your save and jogging to him. Yeah, that is so (not) fun.

8) When you do make an item appear in the bazaar, since you are selling loot all along throughout the game for gil and hoping that something new appears, you have NO IDEA which loot that you did sell was used for making that item or how much of it was needed. So if you're into self-torture and decide to play this crappy game all over again, you're not going to know what was useful and what wasn't or how much of it was needed.

9) The bazaar system is such a mess that any time you have to look something up online or in a guide because the game fails so miserably at giving the player even the slightest hint of how to figure something out that's not a code or cheat or whatever, that's just a sign of incompetent game design.

10) The bazaar system fails at being either realistic or proper for a video game. I mean wow, what can be said. No bazaar works this way in real life. If you were at a bazaar in Bombay or Bangladesh or a flea market somewhere and you had to sell a ton of stuff for money, then you sold enough of a combination of stuff and the merchant was like "Oh congratulations, i'm going to pull this secret item out from under my table for you to purchase if you like and no i was never going to tell you about this but you sold enough rubies and sapphires for me to reveal this special longsword to you", no, sorry, that's just too idiotic for reality. And for a video game version of it? It's a complete mess and there's unanimous consent that the system sucks and is worse than any other "sell your items and get a reward" system that's ever existed before.
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"My cat just gave birth to kittens, and none of them look like me. Hallelujah! Hallelujah!" - Tim Cavanagh
#2DrLight66(Topic Creator)Posted 12/4/2012 2:49:42 AM
That's 10 honest, sensible criticisms of a single small part of FFXII. If I were to grade the bazaar system and take off 10 points for each problem it features, it would get a big fat ZERO. I mean my god, how could the developers have screwed up such a simple concept so badly? Honestly. Was the producer who went nuts and quit the project going through psychosis or having a severe mental breakdown when he outlined how he wanted the bazaar system to work? That's the only explanation I can think of. Either that or the developers were all really high or completely drunk, or both, when they came up with this horribly stupid, poorly designed, poorly implemented, nonsensical mess of a system that any other development team in the world could have done a better job of without even trying.
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"My cat just gave birth to kittens, and none of them look like me. Hallelujah! Hallelujah!" - Tim Cavanagh
#3Machines_Of_DogPosted 12/4/2012 3:27:27 AM
tr;dr

lets make it easier and just count the the number of ways you fail so hard at trolling.

i make that 2 so far.

moron.
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"No-one tries to kill me and gets away with it..."~ Kliamgroq
#4ShinGoukenPosted 12/4/2012 5:48:05 AM
lol at the sillyness.

I'm at work so i'll just make a few points.

So the Bazaar doesn't give you a list of the available items and how to make them? How is this any different than customizing weapons in FFX or hell, even farming random monsters in any other FF, since they don't tell you the steal/drop items.

The Monographs all have the same generic name in the Bazaar? Minor offense when you consider FFXIII had 36 weapons all called Omega weapon <_<

Bazaar isn't realistic? I suppose using X number of bomb shells on a weapon in FFX is realistic? Or dumping X amount of components into a weapon in FFXIII? Or random monsters dropping gil and magic rings?

Again, getting lucky with drops versus spending hours farming them is no better than random enemies dropping certain equipment in previous FF's. Since you don't know what enemies will drop what items, you'll always waste hours farming for items that might be useless unless you use a guide.

Basically, every complaint you made can be applied to every single FF. Your problem isn't with the system in FFXII. It is with all systems throughout the FF series and a large bulk of RPG's in general.

Fail topic
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FFXII Perfect game Inventory at 2400+ Hours - http://youtu.be/ALZMH7lvLdE
#5GmanPosted 12/4/2012 7:39:40 AM
The devs made it so it was basically impossible to obtain any ultimate items through bazaar without a guide. You may luck out on a couple, but probably not.

Sure it could have been done better, but so could the system for getting good items in many games. Think I enjoyed jumping over 200 lightningbolts in FFX?

Someone playing this game for the first time without a guide will not miss the uiltimate bow, or sword, or spear. The game is easy enough to beat with store bought stuff. On your second playthrough, you can use a guide to help you get all the stuff that no normal person could figure out on their own.

By the way, you keep coming on here to complain about a game that people who post here enjoy. What type of reaction do you think you're going to get? If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to play it- stop stressing out and play something you DO like.
#6MarikhenPosted 12/4/2012 7:54:30 AM
DrLight66 posted...
1) ...

2) ...

4) ...

8) ...

9) ...


And these are bad things how? For all that Final Fantasy XII looks and feels a bit like an MMO it's not an MMO with static crafting recipes. If you want that sort of thing you should try playing Rogue Galaxy or Atelier Iris.

Your complaints are based on the presumption that the players have no grasp of the concept of cause and effect and either no capacity or interest in taking notes while playing a game.

Yes, there are guides out there, but in most scenarios these guides are written by people who are not averse to doing work. They aren't written by geniuses whose IQ rivals that of Stephen Hawking and are secretly collaborating on a super AI to take over the world, they're written by average, normal people. If they could figure it out then so too can other people. I don't see that they have no right to complain if they're too lazy to do the work and instead rely on guides to hold their hands because the big, mean game won't.

Also, that any time you have to look stuff up what? Tacking on a comma and your opinion doesn't really properly finish the sentence. It probably won't make the complaint any more valid, but it would be nice if you would finish articulating that thought.

DrLight66 posted...
3) ...


Now this one is actually legitimate. However a better "point of failure" complaint would have been that going over the limit needed to have a certain listing show up in the bazaar doesn't create more of those listings if you input proper multiples of all components. A mention of that flaw in the mechanics would have been nice, but that flaw having been fixed would have been great.

DrLight66 posted...
7) ...


You're complaining about rare components from rare mobs being very rare. Why?

DrLight66 posted...
10) ...


This complaint is flat out wrong given that the bazaar system is one of the most realistic economic simulations of any console RPG I've played to date. You put items in and if you put in the right items you get something out. Compare that to pretty much every other trunk Final Fantasy title (excluding XI and XIV as they're MMOs and subsequently intended to have supply/production/demand economies) where shopkeepers have an infite supply of whatever items they sell, buy everything you have with infinite money, never get anything new (except in a few cases that involve significant plot events and nothing else), and will never, ever let you buy back something you sold to them.

The only RPG with a more "realistic" economic simulation that I've played is Rogue Galaxy given that it has the capacity for static vendors unaffected by the story to introduce new items and item crafting mechanics that include weapon modifications. The only thing it doesn't have, IIRC, is a "buyback" list.

Also I shall point out that the bazaar is just that, a bazaar. It's a collection of merchants all doing business together. That whichever NPC linked to the bazaar you sell stuff to doesn't whip out a +11 longsword the moment you sell 5 pink rat tails and a jug of moonshine is not exactly an issue given that in a "realistic" simulation he might not know it's even there as some other, invisible and never to be interacted with, NPC might have gotten totally pissed and turned those rat tails into a sword without the NPC you're talking to having ever even known it was possible.

____

You've got one sensible complaint in there, not ten. The rest of them make me wonder if you've been satisfied with any RPG released since Final Fantasy Mystic Quest.
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Stop complaining. I could have done this more painfully. - Dryad from Sacred 2.
#7GmanPosted 12/4/2012 8:12:11 AM
^ Agree with this post except a couple of things.

The secrets of the game are not figured out by the faq writers. They are taken from the official strategy guide and presented into the faq by the faq writers so people can learn these secrets without buying the guide. Since the guides are available day 1 with the game, Im going on the assumption the guide writers are not doing a lengthy trial and error secret discovery system... the devs give them the information.

Also, a good example of a real time economy is Skyrim (or any ES game). You sell a sword to the shop keeper, your money goes up, their money goes down, and the sword appears in their inventory for buyback (albeit at a much higher price than you sold it for). As you advance through the game, and your level increases, so do the quality of their wares. This is pretty standard in any RPG, and although a bit unrealistic, is there for balancing purpose, so it works.
#8EAski24Posted 12/4/2012 4:05:20 PM
i farmed moon rings in the great crystal

this was actually funny:

10) The bazaar system fails at being either realistic or proper for a video game. I mean wow, what can be said. No bazaar works this way in real life. If you were at a bazaar in Bombay or Bangladesh or a flea market somewhere and you had to sell a ton of stuff for money, then you sold enough of a combination of stuff and the merchant was like "Oh congratulations, i'm going to pull this secret item out from under my table for you to purchase if you like and no i was never going to tell you about this but you sold enough rubies and sapphires for me to reveal this special longsword to you", no, sorry, that's just too idiotic for reality. And for a video game version of it? It's a complete mess and there's unanimous consent that the system sucks and is worse than any other "sell your items and get a reward" system that's ever existed before.
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i personally love the bazaar system, very original; unique

id say that ff15 will most likely have it or something just like it
#9JolosGhostPosted 12/4/2012 7:26:07 PM
1) Actually, quite a few of the timely recipes are mentioned in-full when you unlock the second page of a bestiary entry. They're very specific, though, so if you haven't killed a bunch of that particular enemy, you go with out. To be fair, they do give you a counter of how many more you need to kill, enticing you to do so.

2) This is fair. But I think the idea was to encourage farming. The game is largely about exploring and killing a *lot* of enemies. Combat is the heart of the game, so they want you to do as much fighting as you can.

3) This is even more fair.

4) Again, fair. The game was designed in such a way that it would boost Strategy Guide sales. A lot of Square-Enix games released in this period used the same principle and it annoyed the hell out of gamers.

5) I don't think unlocking the monographs in that way was stupid. It was more than likely that between heading out to an area to farm for loot to sell so you can keep your group up-to-date, you'd talk to shop owners enough times to see it pop up and say, "hello...what's this?"

6) This game has a lot of "reload if you didn't get what you want" elements to it. Treasures and such included. The Canopic Jars can easily be scouted. There are a ton of places where shop owners are near a save-point.

7) Just FYI, marks and rare game respawn every time you leave the screen without killing them (with only a few notable exceptions). The one-time-only Trophy Rare Game and Marks can be infinitely robbed of their treasures.

8) Again, the repeatable loots are mentioned in Bestiary entries, so anything that is repeatable can be noted and accounted for.

9) Incompetent not so much. Deceptive, slightly. The guidelines are there and so are the hints.

10) I agree that it's unreasonably built. The idea is that you can get uber equipment early by poaching tough foes before you unlock their higher-level counterparts (who naturally drop, or have steals of the same item). It's for the hardcore players who want that edge, and only if it's for the deserving few who devote themselves to it.

At best, Bazaar prizes will keep you an hour ahead of the curve (again, with a few notable exceptions that last a fair while), which is less time than it takes to farm the loot.

I think the better way to do it would be for Bazaar Merchants around the game to ask for *specific* combinations of items and tell you what they're for.

Kind of like FFXIII-2's Accessory Upgrade system.
#10Machines_Of_DogPosted 12/4/2012 7:56:54 PM
hardcore players will do anything to avoid an edge dude

that's why they're hardcore

you're a proper challenge player yourself IIRC...

as opposed to TC who makes it a point of pride to demonstrate her inability to succeed in video games at every possible opportunity

i can't understand somebody who comes to gameFAQS to cry that the game didn't hold her hand enough - it's gameFAQS - the clue is in the name...

if you can't work it out TC then read a guide like a normal person.... frick... all the answers are up that way ^
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"No-one tries to kill me and gets away with it..."~ Kliamgroq