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Character Debates R2: SL vs LifeAdmiral

#11ScaredyLuigiPosted 1/6/2010 12:31:34 PM
Enter Harken, Balancewood's Hero and favorite man after Marcus. Hark! Hark! For Harken is a usable prepromote, which are rather rare and convenient, because they come wrapped in an RNG-proof package, ready to go! Let's just see how ready he is with some starting stats...

Level 8 Hero (HHM bonuses)
38 HP (+4)
21 Str (+2)
20 Skl (+2)
17 Spd (+1)
12 Luck (+0)
15 Def (+1)
10 Res (+1)
11 Con

Iron Sword: 26 Atk, 136 Hit, 17 AS, 46 Avo, 10 Crit, 12 CAvo
Iron Axe: 29 Atk, 121 Hit, 17 AS, 46 Avo, 10 Crit, 12 CAvo
Steel Sword: 29 Atk, 121 Hit, 17 AS, 46 Avo, 10 Crit, 12 CAvo (Hey, same as Iron Axe, so there's WTA options!)
Steel Axe: 32 Atk, 111 Hit, 13 AS, 38 Avo, 10 Crit, 12CAvo

Since the Steel Axe pushes even Harken's manly Con limit, sparingly using the Killer or Silver versions to get ORKOs where the Steel Axe can't (i.e. 10-13 AS units like Bishops) is a viable option.

Killer Axe: 32 Atk, 111 Hit, 17 AS, 46 Avo, 40 Crit, 12CAvo (All the manpower of a Steel, all the speed of an Iron, and a Crit bonus to possibly avoid counterattacks? Godly.)
Silver Axe: 36 Atk, 116 Hit, 16 AS, 44 Avo, 10 Crit, 12 CAvo

With the given starting stats and iron or steel weapons, Harken can kill each and every unpromoted unit from his joining time on, except the occasional Merc and rare Myrm. With the Silver Axe, he stands a good chance of killing those as well, as well as killing promotes. (Or dealing very good damage and letting a weaker unit get massive EXP from the kill)

That brings up another very good aspect of Harken. He's ready to go and kills many things, and his Str is so high that whatever he doesn't kill can go to less experienced units to boost the EXP rank. In order to use this method, Harken will often use the Steel Axe, forcing him to not double. He does around 20-25 damage to the enemy, always bringing them down to less than half, often bringing them down to single digits or low teens, ready for your weak units to finish 'em. This makes Harken the Prepromote win at the EXP rank as well as Tactics.

He also saves a promotion item unlike his cousin, Raven, who is raved about often but has weak defenses in comparison to Harken. By the time Raven reaches 20/8, he has 12.5 Def and 6.3 Res. The Def can punch a hole if many weak units abuse him, as they are getting in 2.5 more damage a hit than they're doing to Harken, so Raven's 9.7 HP lead diminishes in less than 4 units mobbing him(And most mobs have more than 4 units). Raven's Res is even worse compared to Harken's, his HP lead diminishes in less than a 3 unit mob.

Comparing Harken to Raven, Harken wins in both defenses, Str, and Luck, meaning Raven has Harken beat in only 3 out of 7 categories. Yes, Raven's speed is up there, but Harken does Raven's job and more, as mentioned above. (Harken doubles and kills most things and is an EXP trainer if he can't kill. Raven is only capable of the first.) Also, Harken is RNG PROOF. He will NEVER have any worse stats than his **/8, which will get you through the rest of the game, even in the rare case that his growth rates do not satisfy.



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3 facts: 1.)DorcasFE isn't dead. 4.) I suck at math. 3.)Everyone has a Deprece quote in their sig.
^Both of you are full of FAIL! ~Deprece
#12ScaredyLuigiPosted 1/6/2010 12:31:45 PM
Ahh, growth rates. Now, you might be thinking, "Hey, Harken would be perfect in everything, but his HP is a bit low. He doesn't even have the second bar". However, look at his growth. It's 80%. Sky-high. Enough for 44 HP at level 15 (likely endgame level) and 48 HP at level 20 (a viable endgame level). This is very beneficial to his Wall Hero status, complemented with 19 Def and 13 Res at **/20, which blocks everything and gives room for error. Even before **/20, Harken will be piling on the Def fast, as he has one of the highest growths in the game; 30%. This is ONLY beaten by 3 characters, and the others either have lower starting Def or have Res problems, meaning Harken is the game's fourth wall. (Harken: Why am I being debated about right now?)...Whoops, I meant fourth best wall, which is a mere bonus to his other shining traits.

Now for supports. Harken has the Fire Affinity, which fortunately gives him the Avo he really needs. ALL of his possible supports feature a +5 Avo, meaning filling all 5 supports in will ALWAYS result in a godly +25 Avo bonus, so he has an average of 83 max Avo, provided his weapons don't weigh him down (they do not except Steel Axe and Silver Axe only makes his Avo 81). Base Avo + Harken standing in a forest with his supports = 103 Avo. Not only is Harken the game's 4th best defensive tank, he is also one of the best dodge tanks. Seriously, how can any character get any better than Harken with his many Swiss Army Knife advantages, no less a thief?
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3 facts: 1.)DorcasFE isn't dead. 4.) I suck at math. 3.)Everyone has a Deprece quote in their sig.
^Both of you are full of FAIL! ~Deprece
#13ScaredyLuigiPosted 1/6/2010 12:32:36 PM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
#14ScaredyLuigiPosted 1/6/2010 12:46:23 PM
More supports...
Harken has few but fast options. Isadora won't be used, Eliwood is a great supporter if he didn't already support someone else. Marcus should be used over Lowen in most cases; it's longer but Marcus gives him +1 Def, contributing to his walling. With this, Eliwood, Marcus, and Harken can form the Pherae triangle of three of the best characters in the game. A Eliwood/Harken, B Harken/Marcus, and B Eliwood/Marcus is preferred for the above reasons. This lets Eliwood be more awesome than the awesome he is, lets Marcus make up for his falling endgame, and lets Harken just dominate.

Harken A Eliwood, B Marcus, level 15, Iron Axe(&Steel Sword)
44 HP, 36 Atk, 143 Hit, 78 Avo, 23 Crit, 25 CAvo, 19 Def, 14 Res (Assuming support "Def" also implies Res, correct me if I'm wrong)

Able to kill or training-dent all enemies, WTA, hits everything (Will never get below 95% real since there's no forest swordsmasters), dodges all non-killer Crits, deals a crit roughly 1 out of 4 times, quality defensive tank, quality dodge tank. Everything is perfect or near perfect. That's our Harken.

Rebuttal time, yay!
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3 facts: 1.)DorcasFE isn't dead. 4.) I suck at math. 3.)Everyone has a Deprece quote in their sig.
^Both of you are full of FAIL! ~Deprece
#15HighlandRouguePosted 1/6/2010 1:16:51 PM
this is a good debate. harkens way stronger but legaults a cooler character. hope your debating skills are good lifeadmiral! and good 4th wall joke scaredy luigi XD
#16ScaredyLuigiPosted 1/6/2010 1:27:33 PM
Thanks :P
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3 facts: 1.)DorcasFE isn't dead. 4.) I suck at math. 3.)Everyone has a Deprece quote in their sig.
^Both of you are full of FAIL! ~Deprece
#17LifeadmiralPosted 1/6/2010 4:51:54 PM
Enter Harken, Balancewood's Hero and favorite man after Marcus. Hark! Hark! For Harken is a usable prepromote, which are rather rare and convenient, because they come wrapped in an RNG-proof package, ready to go! Let's just see how ready he is with some starting stats...

Excuse me? Harken is a little prissy fellow who wallows in self pity and decides to attack you for the sake of... Can someone remind me again why he fights against you? At least Legault has a personality... and screen time.

Level 8 Hero (HHM bonuses)
38 HP (+4)
21 Str (+2)
20 Skl (+2)
17 Spd (+1)
12 Luck (+0)
15 Def (+1)
10 Res (+1)
11 Con

Iron Sword: 26 Atk, 136 Hit, 17 AS, 46 Avo, 10 Crit, 12 CAvo
Iron Axe: 29 Atk, 121 Hit, 17 AS, 46 Avo, 10 Crit, 12 CAvo
Steel Sword: 29 Atk, 121 Hit, 17 AS, 46 Avo, 10 Crit, 12 CAvo (Hey, same as Iron Axe, so there's WTA options!)
Steel Axe: 32 Atk, 111 Hit, 13 AS, 38 Avo, 10 Crit, 12CAvo

Since the Steel Axe pushes even Harken's manly Con limit, sparingly using the Killer or Silver versions to get ORKOs where the Steel Axe can't (i.e. 10-13 AS units like Bishops) is a viable option.

Killer Axe: 32 Atk, 111 Hit, 17 AS, 46 Avo, 40 Crit, 12CAvo (All the manpower of a Steel, all the speed of an Iron, and a Crit bonus to possibly avoid counterattacks? Godly.)
Silver Axe: 36 Atk, 116 Hit, 16 AS, 44 Avo, 10 Crit, 12 CAvo


And who is funding those Killer and Silver axes? Wait wait, don't tell me. I think his name starts with an L and rhymes with Renault. But I'm not completely sure...

However, I have no idea where this "sparingly using the Killer or Silver versions to get ORKOs where the Steel Axe can't" nonsense is coming from. What's wrong with an Iron Axe? If he doubles stuff with it, why can't he use it instead of moving to more expensive weapons? In case you've forgotten, the Iron Axe is 6 GPU (gold per use) while the Killer and Silver weapons are both 20. The Iron Axe basically does all the work for him so why does Harken get this wonderfully stupid advantage?

Don't prop him up with advantages he doesn't need. It's stupid and pointless.
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#18LifeadmiralPosted 1/6/2010 4:53:06 PM
With the given starting stats and iron or steel weapons, Harken can kill each and every unpromoted unit from his joining time on, except the occasional Merc and rare Myrm. With the Silver Axe, he stands a good chance of killing those as well, as well as killing promotes. (Or dealing very good damage and letting a weaker unit get massive EXP from the kill)

That brings up another very good aspect of Harken. He's ready to go and kills many things, and his Str is so high that whatever he doesn't kill can go to less experienced units to boost the EXP rank. In order to use this method, Harken will often use the Steel Axe, forcing him to not double. He does around 20-25 damage to the enemy, always bringing them down to less than half, often bringing them down to single digits or low teens, ready for your weak units to finish 'em. This makes Harken the Prepromote win at the EXP rank as well as Tactics.


What's Harken's starting WExp level in axes? Oh yeah, B. Silver Axe needs an A. We're talking about... 60 uses of a weapon to get there. That's roughly about... 4 chapters at the very least.

"But LA! The Steel Axe gives 2 WExp per shot while the Iron Axe gives 1!" True but I quote the wonderfully smart (and slightly hypocritical) ScaredyLuigi here. Harken will often use the Steel Axe, forcing him to not double. Oops, Harken's still only getting 2 WExp per turn! He can double with Iron for 2 or single with the Steel for 2. Still gonna be a long way to 60 WExp.

This brings me to my next point. Where the hell has Harken been for most of the game? By the time you meet the coward (don't deny it, he joins the enemy), Legault's been around for more chapters than Harken can even dream of participating in. Legault's been helping the rankings for 9 chapters while Harken was hiding in the corner. And by helping, I'm talking about all of them, including Tactics as Legault doesn't need as many (or really any) bodyguards that Matthew requires, allowing the rest of your group to finish the map much quicker.

Why don't we focus in on the Exp Rank? Legault gets a boost from being a thief and later being an assassin. Harken gets a boost from... Oh wait, he's actually detrimental to the rank when compared to most other units, especially against Legault. Why don't we pull out some numbers? I'll just use arbitrary but gameplay accurate levels. As for the enemies, I'm making up the levels because I don't have accurate ones. But I don't think it's going to matter because Legault will always curbstomp Harken in Exp, no matter what.
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#19LifeadmiralPosted 1/6/2010 4:53:45 PM
The basic Exp formulas are:

Experience from doing damage = [31 + (enemy's Level + enemy's Class bonus A) - (Level + Class bonus A)] / Class power

Experience from defeating (base) = [(enemy's Level x enemy's Class power) + enemy's Class bonus B] - { [(Level x Class power) + Class bonus B] / Mode coefficient }

Experience from defeating enemy = (Experience from doing damage + [Experience from defeating (base) + 20 + Boss bonus + Thief bonus, take as 0 if negative]) x Assassination coefficient

In Chapter 27 vs. a Level 17 Soldier. Level 18 Legault gets 15 for a non-kill and 51 for a kill (15 + 16 +20). Level 8 Harken gets 6 for a non-kill and 26 for a kill (6 + 0 + 20). Now my math can be wrong here as I'm being generous to Harken. I'm assuming that his "Experience from defeating (base)" gets counted as 0 because the number is actually negative. If I'm wrong, then Harken actually gains 18 for a kill, giving Legault almost a 3x advantage in the Exp department.

In Chapter 30 vs. a Level 2 Fighter. Level 3 Legault gets 15 from a non-kill and 55 from a kill (15 + 20 + 20) excluding Silencer. Silencer makes it spike to 99. Level 10 Harken gets 7 for a non-kill and 48 for a kill (7 + 21 + 20). Win for Legault before Silencer activates 21% of the time. Imagine what happens after it does.

In Chapter 32 vs. a Level 8 Fighter. Level 8 Legault gets 15 from a non-kill, 63 from a kill (15 + 28 + 20), and 113 from Silencer with a 21% chance of activating. Level 13 Harken gets 8 for a non-kill and 63 for a kill (8 + 35 + 20). It's a dead tie... Until Silencer activates.

But do you see what I'm getting at? Legault is always leading Harken in the Exp game. Harken does chip away at the lead but once Legault promotes, Silencer destroys Harken.

He also saves a promotion item unlike his cousin, Raven, who is raved about often but has weak defenses in comparison to Harken. By the time Raven reaches 20/8, he has 12.5 Def and 6.3 Res. The Def can punch a hole if many weak units abuse him, as they are getting in 2.5 more damage a hit than they're doing to Harken, so Raven's 9.7 HP lead diminishes in less than 4 units mobbing him(And most mobs have more than 4 units). Raven's Res is even worse compared to Harken's, his HP lead diminishes in less than a 3 unit mob.

1. 20/8 Raven has ~25 Spd and ~10 Luck. 20/10 Harken has ~19 Spd and ~12 Luck. With an Iron Axe, Raven has about 58 Avo before supports while Harken sits at 50 Avo. Throw in the fact that Raven's had time to grow supports and he suddenly has at least a 10 point advantage in Avo, probably somewhere upwards of 15+ Avo on Harken. That coupled with the ~10 HP lead will probably keep Raven going quite a bit longer than Harken as we're only talking about displayed hit.

2. What's your point here? Harken only costs for weapons and not a promotion? Big ****ing deal. Legault is still beating the crap out of him when it comes to the Cost Ranking. Harken is only a negative for the Cost ranking as he will always eat up money without gaining it in a way that other units can't (picking up weapons and items from dead enemies). Legault has 2 surefire ways of making money: Stealing and looting. He pays for his Fell Contract and more with the possible loot he can get.
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#20LifeadmiralPosted 1/6/2010 4:54:31 PM
Comparing Harken to Raven, Harken wins in both defenses, Str, and Luck, meaning Raven has Harken beat in only 3 out of 7 categories. Yes, Raven's speed is up there, but Harken does Raven's job and more, as mentioned above. (Harken doubles and kills most things and is an EXP trainer if he can't kill. Raven is only capable of the first.) Also, Harken is RNG PROOF. He will NEVER have any worse stats than his **/8, which will get you through the rest of the game, even in the rare case that his growth rates do not satisfy.

Harken also appears with 7 chapters left to go. Raven shows up 8 chapters into the actual game. Stats alone don't make a unit great. You of all people should know this. Harken's availability is toiletsville and it is a known fact.

Ahh, growth rates. Now, you might be thinking, "Hey, Harken would be perfect in everything, but his HP is a bit low. He doesn't even have the second bar". However, look at his growth. It's 80%. Sky-high. Enough for 44 HP at level 15 (likely endgame level) and 48 HP at level 20 (a viable endgame level). This is very beneficial to his Wall Hero status, complemented with 19 Def and 13 Res at **/20, which blocks everything and gives room for error. Even before **/20, Harken will be piling on the Def fast, as he has one of the highest growths in the game; 30%. This is ONLY beaten by 3 characters, and the others either have lower starting Def or have Res problems, meaning Harken is the game's fourth wall. (Harken: Why am I being debated about right now?)...Whoops, I meant fourth best wall, which is a mere bonus to his other shining traits.

You're 2 levels off for the possible endgame level but that's just nitpicking. However, there's no chance in hell that Harken's making it to **/20 if this is a ranked run. He has been switched out for Exp and utility units (both part of Legault's specialty) so that you can actually complete the S Rank. Honestly, I'd be surprised if Harken makes it anywhere past **/13 as Raven will probably be taken for Light over him because of Raven's supports with Prissy and possibly Lucius.

As for the wall stuff, sure. However, other characters won't have to be walls because they'll be dodge-tanks and have even less of a chance of dying. And doesn't Raven fall under that catagory?
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