Red Tom's Punch-Out!! Records

#1Real_Talk_27Posted 6/29/2010 3:32:49 PM
I've heard a lot of big talk about these records on this website called Red Tom's Punch-Out!! Me and a lot of other people just shake or heads and think a lot of the records on there are not even possible to get. It just sounds like a bunch of rewinder records to me.
#2sinister2424Posted 6/29/2010 4:51:32 PM
You are not the first person to wonder about the validity of the record times found on RedTom's site. I will say is that the times are definitely within the realm of possibilities for humans to achieve. Whether or not they were actually achieved is something you have to decide for yourself because there is no hard evidence. There are no videos, visual records, or twin galaxies verified records of these times on the internet.

The main problem with achieving some of the times on the list is this:

1) The randomness of the game has to be in the players favor at multiple points during a fight. An example of this would be Don Flamenco 2 who gives random stars on certain counters at a rate of what I would consider to be 5-10% of the time or 1 in every 10 - 20 times. Now imagine having that 5-10% chance end up in your favor 3 - 5 times in the same fight. The odds of that are quite low as you can imagine..

2) Some of the randomness needed is so rare that even in hundreds - thousands of attempts against a single fighter the correct randomness may only occur a handful of times, like getting ALL the random stars against Don Flamenco 2.

3) When the randomness DOES occur perfectly in the players favor the player must execute equally perfectly often with frame precision at several different times throughout the fight.

Does all that mean that the times were not achieved? No, it simply means that if they were it probably took hundreds or even thousands of attempts by a player of the highest caliber who was playing for nothing more than the thrill of achieving such awesome times.

I would be less inclined to think the times were theoretically possible if we did not live in the age of Tool Assisted Speedruns (TAS). The TAS done by adelikat in 17:50 shows what is theoretically possible to achieve in this game and most of the record times on RedTom's site do not match the TAS. It is not like in the old days of Twin Galaxies where players could just report bogus scores with no fear of recourse. If that was the case people would be claiming they got 00:24.xx on Glass Joe or some other ridiculousness.
#3Mike_GirardPosted 6/29/2010 5:17:51 PM

I started questioning some of the records even more when I could not even get 47.82 on Great Tiger using the same strategy as what Adelikat used when he got 47.48 on him onhis TAS speed run. After doing some Great Tiger fights on my own with tool assisting on an emulator I got 47.48 within no time indicating to me that either the internal time clock or Great Tiger's gem flash does get disrupted a little bit from using tool assisting.

#4brian sulpher(Moderator)Posted 6/30/2010 4:02:29 AM
Thing about those times and claims are that the vast majority of the strategies are documented... something which does not happen with the vast majority of sites like that.
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#5Real_Talk_27(Topic Creator)Posted 6/30/2010 8:52:46 AM
I am mainly concerned about some of the records on there, not all of them. It is the best Punch-Out!! site by a long shot for information about the game.
#6sinister2424Posted 6/30/2010 11:45:11 AM
Maybe you could specify exactly which records you are talking about if you want to get clarification.
#7Real_Talk_27(Topic Creator)Posted 6/30/2010 2:25:38 PM
I think the Von Kaiser, Piston Honda 1, King Hippo, Great Tiger, Bald Bull 1, Don 2 and Super Macho Man records were only achieved with tool assisting only. Don 2 can only be beat that fast with save states or by using the Game Genie code for stars are more common. I know that from experience because I have gotten 1:23.25 on Don 2 before using the Game Genie only.
#8Real_Talk_27(Topic Creator)Posted 6/30/2010 5:36:16 PM
I suppose the Matt Turk is just laying back not saying anything because he knows he has been dishonest to everybody for the past 6 or 7 years. You know good and well you did'nt get a lot of those times fair and square. I guess since you have access to the Record Shrine on the Red Tom site you can put whatever you want in there. No wonder you have 1st place on everything.
#9mrturkPosted 7/1/2010 12:25:20 AM
Much to learn all of you still have.
#10mrturkPosted 7/1/2010 1:42:37 AM
A couple of other things. When I first started playing my times were pretty ordinary. Back in 2003 TASing was is its infancy and there was no FCEU. So, we pretty much had to play a ton of games on each character on the real NES and the only emulator we had at that time was Nesticle which lacked frame advance or a memory watcher feature. But the original group of guys of Daniel T, Brian Sulpher, RedTom, Above Average, Jack W who cut there teeth on this game when speedrunning was not popular will always be the best MTPO players to me not this new group that has invaded this board. I think you have tp look at a player like Daniel T. He had a 1:16 on Super Macho Man and a 2:26 on Mike Tyson all the way back in 2002 just showing that he was years ahead of the curve and my main inspiration for starting in this game. All of the strategies that this new group is referring to that you might be using on Tom's site came out around 2003 I invented along with RedTom . The files listed below each strategy labeled with a .nsm were obviously done with an emulator (nesticle). Note that in all of those fights I did not use a single savestate. I only made those files so people could see how each strategy was done. As time passed and the TAS came out I rethinked a few strategies and came up with a few new things to add to make the some of the TAS strategies humanly possible. All of the times listed on the World Records shrine were done on an ordinary NES console running at 60Hz with the orginal MTPO cartridge. Even though there is no documentation (although I took a picture of each time with the decimals for each one) the times are for real and are the results of tons of research and practice. For example I started out with a about a 1:30 on Macho Man in 2003.. Then in 2005 I lowered to about 1:12. It wasn't unitl about 2007 that I put togerther a near perfect strategy to pull off a 0:48 on him. Some of the times are hard to believe but I worked to knock off every second I could so that when I finally left this game I would have left a lasting impression and made it difficult to for anyone to beat one. Most of the players attacking the integrity and validity of the older players on this board have been playing this game for less than a year and in order to understand some of these advanced strategies you need to be playing for longer than that. The people that I have revealed information to (MIchael Girard and Sinister included know that my strategies work.) So unfortunately, due to the recent attacks on my validity and integrity as well as the old MTPO players credibilty I will no longer reveal any information concenrning how I got those times or help anyone who is currently attempting a speedrun of this game (this includes Michael Girard as well as Sinister).
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