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Shaman and Warlocks should have a 4th spec too?

#1Q_SenseiPosted 2/15/2013 3:48:52 AM
Teriz posted on some other site:
Druids have 4th spec because they had a DPS and a tanking spec in a single tree. A good argument, but what about Shaman and Warlocks? Shaman tanking threads pop up numerous times on the Shaman forums here on MMOC, and they pop up numerous times on the official forums. Warlocks have almost an entirely 4th spec with Dark Apotheosis, which makes adding another spec for them seemingly a no-brainer.

At one time, Shaman were a tank on the same level as Protection Paladins and Bear Druids in vanilla. In fact, Shaman were originally the opposite of Paladins. Both classes were supposed to be mirrors of each other, with Shaman being horde-only and Paladins being alliance-only. However, Blizzard eventually reduced Shaman's capability to tank, and reduced Shaman tanking ability over the course of subsequent expansions. Along with this reduction came the slow loss of the Shaman tanking abilities and talents. I definitely feel that Blizzard's decision to grant Paladins and Shaman to both factions, and make Shaman and Paladin completely different classes was a good idea. However, dismantling Shaman tanking was a pretty bad idea, and has led to some pretty wonky class design ever since.

Shaman are masters of the four elements (earth, fire, wind, water), yet only 3 elements are fully represented. Elemental is fire, Enhancement is wind, and Restoration is water. This is backed by their dominant abilities, Ascendant forms, and weapon imbues. There is no Earth spec because Earth represents defense and protection. Its a pretty silly omission, but it makes sense given the 3 spec limit. 4 specs would flesh out all the elements, and make Shaman a more complete class.

Finally, there's quite a few abilities in the Shaman toolkit that just seem out of place. The biggest example of this is Rockbiter weapon. This is the only weapon imbue that has no clear purpose. Flametongue is the Elemental primary imbue (and the secondary imbue for Enhance). Windfury is the primary Enhance imbue. Earth Living is the primary imbue for Restoration. Frostbrand is the PvP imbue. Rockbiter? You supposedly use it in the rare case of saving the healer from death or something... Rockbiter even has a taunt when it is unleashed, and the talent Unleashed Fury reduces damage by a further 40%. A great utility that most Shaman never use.

The case for a Warlock 4th spec is even easier to make. Again DA is pretty much a separate Warlock spec wrapped up entirely in a glyph. DA not only gives the Warlock unique stats, it also gives them unique abilities as well. Abilities that can only be activated by using the glyph. Blizzard however decided that glyphs shouldn't determine a tank spec. A good decision, but then why not just give locks a 4th spec so that Warlocks could tank, and the traditional DPS specs could be preserved? It's a win-win for everyone involved. It certainly helps that DA is reminiscent of Dreadlords from WC3, which is cool in its own right. I would hate to see DA's uniqueness get destroyed in the next expansion because Blizzard can't do anything with it because of the 3 spec system.

If we can't have all classes getting 4th spec due to balance reasons, we should at least consider 4th specs for classes that need them the most. That would be Shaman and Warlocks.


http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1260925-Shaman-and-Warlocks-should-have-a-4th-spec-too



What do you guys think of this argument?
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#2HakPosted 2/15/2013 3:54:42 AM
Did this deserve its own topic when you already have a topic in the top 5 regarding 4 specs?
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#3g0tbeef89Posted 2/15/2013 5:19:03 AM
Hak posted...
Did this deserve its own topic when you already have a topic in the top 5 regarding 4 specs?


Yes now quit being a jerk and avoiding the question.
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#4HakPosted 2/15/2013 5:27:30 AM
g0tbeef89 posted...
Hak posted...
Did this deserve its own topic when you already have a topic in the top 5 regarding 4 specs?


Yes now quit being a jerk and avoiding the question.


No it didn't, and I already answered the question in his other topic. But if you'd actually checked you'd know that, rather than making a pointless post that didn't even attempt to address the OP's asinine point/question.
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In the book, it says He created us to be just like Him. So if we're dumb, then God is dumb, and maybe a little bit ugly on the side. - Zappa
#5Q_Sensei(Topic Creator)Posted 2/15/2013 5:49:56 AM
Hak posted...
Did this deserve its own topic when you already have a topic in the top 5 regarding 4 specs?


This isn't my topic now, it's that other guy's topic. I'm only posting for him.
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#6SA_X_Mk_IIPosted 2/15/2013 6:03:46 AM
I'd love to be able to have a Tank spec as a Warlock, especially since I'm leveling with Dark Apotheosis as my first Major Glyph right now.

I don't know, but comparing when I leveled my Hunter to level a Demonology Warlock, poor blue can't seem to hold back attacks worth anything. My fiancee is leveling a Hunter with my Lock and, at ~30, blue take twice the damage her pet does. Not only that, but I kill faster throwing a HoG and some DS rather than either using SB a few times or trying to dot things up. Not only that, but when I do get hit I take less punishment.

Being able to have DA be a full 4th spec dedicated to Tanking with actual crit immunity would be awesome. Really, would only need an early taunt...
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#7KTG2Posted 2/15/2013 6:27:42 AM(edited)
Didn't read. Guild Wars 2 destroyed the "trinity" dungeon structure, which was a cool idea but was executed poorly.

What they did do right is make it so every class can fill every role. There's no reason WoW can't do this.

Why not battlepriests? Dodge-tanking, twitch gameplay rogues? Hunters that heal with herbs or something (like rangers?) Warriors could be awesome support if they had a little AoE healing through DPS sort of mechanic. This would totally eliminate dungeon queue problems and give everybody a chance to do something truly unique.

Of course, they would have to completely retool the ****fest that is Warcraft PVP so something innovative and useful could never actually happen : /

To sum up: Yes shamans and warlocks should be able to tank. Everybody should.
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#84sakuraHa0Posted 2/15/2013 6:37:19 AM
I would love to have shaman tank (or warlock tank).

Of course, when Blizzards grants it, the rest of the class will ask(read: QQ) for their 4th spec too.
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#9SA_X_Mk_IIPosted 2/15/2013 6:53:53 AM
From: KTG2 | Posted: 2/15/2013 10:27:42 AM | #007
Didn't read. Guild Wars 2 destroyed the "trinity" dungeon structure, which was a cool idea but was executed poorly.

What they did do right is make it so every class can fill every role. There's no reason WoW can't do this.

Why not battlepriests? Dodge-tanking, twitch gameplay rogues? Hunters that heal with herbs or something (like rangers?) Warriors could be awesome support if they had a little AoE healing through DPS sort of mechanic. This would totally eliminate dungeon queue problems and give everybody a chance to do something truly unique.

Of course, they would have to completely retool the ****fest that is Warcraft PVP so something innovative and useful could never actually happen : /

To sum up: Yes shamans and warlocks should be able to tank. Everybody should.


They made every class fill every roll because there are no roles. There are no Tanks and no Healers in the traditional sense, only DPS/DD. Other games have done this (and better) in the past, just mostly obscure games that probably no one has heard of.



If we're going to go with the "let's make WoW more like other games" line of thought, then I want combat to be more fun and action-based like TERA, or more customizable like Perfect World. Hell, I could go more obscure and ask for a combo system like Seal Online, or more giant world boss spam fests like ROSE Online, or even usage-based skill upgrades like the original (better) FlyFF Online...



Honestly, Shaman and Warlocks already have some of the tools in place for Tanking, they'd just require the "Crit Immune" passive, more threat generation on certain abilities and some tanking cool-downs. With how Blizz is treating the specs though, they'd probably make new abilities specifically for the new specs (Rockbiter Weapon and Dark Apotheosis being exclusive to that spec, for example, with DA being baseline and not a Glyph).
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#10HakPosted 2/15/2013 7:00:28 AM
KTG2 posted...
Didn't read. Guild Wars 2 destroyed the "trinity" dungeon structure, which was a cool idea but was executed poorly.


Don't credit GW2 with that. City of Heroes had that on release. Most of the content in that was run with 8 Blasters (think Mages, but squishier), or 8 Defenders (there's not really a proper analog in WoW... kinda Healers, kinda CC, more focused on buffing and debuffing to a point where heals were actually unnecessary).

Only time Tanks were really required was to absorb the alpha strikes in the Incarnate content 40-man runs (now I think about it... WoW ditched 40-man runs and introduced 25-player LFR. CoH introduced 40-man LFR before WoW, and there were still less morons per run in a 40 than in a 25).
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In the book, it says He created us to be just like Him. So if we're dumb, then God is dumb, and maybe a little bit ugly on the side. - Zappa