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MoP is a great expansion, I just have one issue with it

#31HakPosted 2/18/2013 2:31:34 AM
Abyssmal Fiend posted...
tote_all posted...
http://i.imgur.com/4u1biRF.png

See people? That's when it applies.

The community asked for Pandarens, it wasn't that Blizzard just "ran with it".


Such a clever reply. I've never seen such astonishing wit before today.

And Blizzard has a very long tradition of flat out ignoring what the community asks for. People have been asking for the Emerald Dream since vanilla and Blizzard responded by resolving that plot arc in a book.


Awww.... do you play something other than a Druid? Do any of your guildies you raid with play another except a Druid? If the answer to either of these is "yes" then sorry, you couldn't enter the Dream anyway. So you're not missing out on anything.
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In the book, it says He created us to be just like Him. So if we're dumb, then God is dumb, and maybe a little bit ugly on the side. - Zappa
#32Abyssmal FiendPosted 2/18/2013 2:54:33 AM
The lore defense? Really? You should go visit the Firelands some day. Lakes of fire, superheated air, and an omnipresent cloud of burning ash -- oh, and some mortals who seem perfectly kosher in an environment that is arguably even harder to survive in than any of the other elemental planes. And the Firelands invasion is far less ridiculous than some of the other stuff in Warcraft lore (whether that be Outland or the Exodar and the rest of the shenanigans surrounding the draenei).

And there was a level 80 quest that involved being sent to the Emerald Dream. Where, unsurprisingly, you did not immediately suffer an aneurysm brought on by the impossibility of all of that. So your argument obviously does not hold water.

tote_all posted...
Literally doesn't change anything about what I said. Literally.


It's a clear counter-example that shows how Blizzard regularly ignores what the community asks for. This, in turn, means that your "Blizzard was just listening to the community" defense doesn't hold water. I established that Blizzard does what Blizzard wants, not what the playerbase wants. Your rebuttal to my counter-example is "nuh-uh."

You may want to stop digging.
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"Erst waegen, dann wagen." - Helmuth von Moltke the Elder
#33HakPosted 2/18/2013 3:08:09 AM
Abyssmal Fiend posted...
The lore defense? Really? You should go visit the Firelands some day. Lakes of fire, superheated air, and an omnipresent cloud of burning ash -- oh, and some mortals who seem perfectly kosher in an environment that is arguably even harder to survive in than any of the other elemental planes. And the Firelands invasion is far less ridiculous than some of the other stuff in Warcraft lore (whether that be Outland or the Exodar and the rest of the shenanigans surrounding the draenei).

And there was a level 80 quest that involved being sent to the Emerald Dream. Where, unsurprisingly, you did not immediately suffer an aneurysm brought on by the impossibility of all of that. So your argument obviously does not hold water.

tote_all posted...
Literally doesn't change anything about what I said. Literally.


It's a clear counter-example that shows how Blizzard regularly ignores what the community asks for. This, in turn, means that your "Blizzard was just listening to the community" defense doesn't hold water. I established that Blizzard does what Blizzard wants, not what the playerbase wants. Your rebuttal to my counter-example is "nuh-uh."

You may want to stop digging.


The level 80 quest you're referring to was allowed because you were in one tiny section and if you went close to the edges you could see the huge big elite trees there ready to stomp you. You were also being maintained there by Remulos who states that even that method of entering is dangerous.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it unsupported. ALL of the background material regarding the Emerald Dream has always stated that sentient beings (except Druids) cannot enter. No gimmicks, no mucking about... you cannot go in. I think Blizz did the right thing - rather than come up with some stupid, convoluted reason which would make no sense, instead the resolve it and bring Furion back to present lore.
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In the book, it says He created us to be just like Him. So if we're dumb, then God is dumb, and maybe a little bit ugly on the side. - Zappa
#34mavlokPosted 2/18/2013 5:11:56 AM(edited)
I agree with the TC. Pandaren leave me cold for some reason, and I wasn't even one of the "lolpandas" crowd.
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'Life is a crap sandwich; the more bread you get the less crap you have to eat.'
#35tote_all(Topic Creator)Posted 2/18/2013 10:36:30 AM
From: Abyssmal Fiend | #032
It's a clear counter-example that shows how Blizzard regularly ignores what the community asks for. This, in turn, means that your "Blizzard was just listening to the community" defense doesn't hold water. I established that Blizzard does what Blizzard wants, not what the playerbase wants. Your rebuttal to my counter-example is "nuh-uh."

You may want to stop digging.


Digging? Buddy, your thinking is fallacious. "Blizzard regularly ignores the community, therefore Blizzard has never listened to the community" is a false generalization. Pandar were brought in because the community wanted them, this is a fact.

The pandaren started as a creation of Samwise Didier and an April Fool's joke, but they got a massive response from Warcraft fans. In the first BlizzCast episode launched on Jan. 10, 2008, Samwise recalled the process to the creation of the Pandaren April Fool's page: "But so we put that up in there and everyone was like ďOh my God! A PANDA RACE? Thatís kind of cool!Ē And Iím like ďAre you kidding me, really? You want to see pandas in Warcraft III or whatever?Ē"

http://www.wowpedia.org/History_of_pandaren_in_Warcraft

Dig deeper buddy.
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http://i.imgur.com/4u1biRF.png
#36ZaibatoPosted 2/18/2013 12:45:22 PM
Oh, so even S. Didier was appalled that someone wanted pandas in WC. But if those dumbasses want it so much, let em have it...
#37game freakozoidPosted 2/18/2013 2:42:26 PM
Hak posted...
Abyssmal Fiend posted...
The lore defense? Really? You should go visit the Firelands some day. Lakes of fire, superheated air, and an omnipresent cloud of burning ash -- oh, and some mortals who seem perfectly kosher in an environment that is arguably even harder to survive in than any of the other elemental planes. And the Firelands invasion is far less ridiculous than some of the other stuff in Warcraft lore (whether that be Outland or the Exodar and the rest of the shenanigans surrounding the draenei).

And there was a level 80 quest that involved being sent to the Emerald Dream. Where, unsurprisingly, you did not immediately suffer an aneurysm brought on by the impossibility of all of that. So your argument obviously does not hold water.

tote_all posted...
Literally doesn't change anything about what I said. Literally.


It's a clear counter-example that shows how Blizzard regularly ignores what the community asks for. This, in turn, means that your "Blizzard was just listening to the community" defense doesn't hold water. I established that Blizzard does what Blizzard wants, not what the playerbase wants. Your rebuttal to my counter-example is "nuh-uh."

You may want to stop digging.


The level 80 quest you're referring to was allowed because you were in one tiny section and if you went close to the edges you could see the huge big elite trees there ready to stomp you. You were also being maintained there by Remulos who states that even that method of entering is dangerous.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it unsupported. ALL of the background material regarding the Emerald Dream has always stated that sentient beings (except Druids) cannot enter. No gimmicks, no mucking about... you cannot go in. I think Blizz did the right thing - rather than come up with some stupid, convoluted reason which would make no sense, instead the resolve it and bring Furion back to present lore.


You're really exagerrating how much only druids can enter the dream. First off, the quest with Remulos just says that it is dangerous to enter that way. It should also be noted that that quest takes place during a period of time when the emerald dream is heavily infected with the nightmare. Plus, it isn't like druids have an easier time doing that quest or anything.


Not to mention your argument is basically forced to completely ignore Stormrage.
#38AceronPosted 2/18/2013 4:35:34 PM
There's also another quest where you travel the Emerald Dream.

During the early quest lines for Mt. Hyjal in Cataclysm. When you're asked to escort the captured Staghelm out of his cell, you bring him into the emerald dream to slip past the twilight cultists who are assaulting the barrow he's locked in.
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Believe in yourself. Not you, that believes in me.
Not me, that believes in you. Believe in you that believes in yourself. - Kamina, TTGL
#39Abyssmal FiendPosted 2/19/2013 3:02:24 AM
Hak posted...
The level 80 quest you're referring to was allowed because you were in one tiny section and if you went close to the edges you could see the huge big elite trees there ready to stomp you. You were also being maintained there by Remulos who states that even that method of entering is dangerous.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it unsupported. ALL of the background material regarding the Emerald Dream has always stated that sentient beings (except Druids) cannot enter. No gimmicks, no mucking about... you cannot go in. I think Blizz did the right thing - rather than come up with some stupid, convoluted reason which would make no sense, instead the resolve it and bring Furion back to present lore.


On one hand, you agree that this quest establishes precedent that non-druids can enter the Emerald Dream under specific circumstances. On the other, you say that "No gimmicks, no mucking about... you cannot go in." This is a contradiction. Either "no gimmicks" and non-druids cannot enter or non-druids can enter given the right circumstances. You cannot simultaneously claim both positions.

And apparently I'm not the only one who sees how flawed your position is.

tote_all posted...
Digging? Buddy, your thinking is fallacious. "Blizzard regularly ignores the community, therefore Blizzard has never listened to the community" is a false generalization. Pandar were brought in because the community wanted them, this is a fact.

The pandaren started as a creation of Samwise Didier and an April Fool's joke, but they got a massive response from Warcraft fans. In the first BlizzCast episode launched on Jan. 10, 2008, Samwise recalled the process to the creation of the Pandaren April Fool's page: "But so we put that up in there and everyone was like ďOh my God! A PANDA RACE? Thatís kind of cool!Ē And Iím like ďAre you kidding me, really? You want to see pandas in Warcraft III or whatever?Ē"

http://www.wowpedia.org/History_of_pandaren_in_Warcraft

Dig deeper buddy.


On one hand, you try to use the legalist approach to this discussion (the presented summary is a misrepresentation and therefore your post is attacking a strawman, but that's not important right now). On the other, you brazenly misrepresent the passage you quoted. The quote is in reference to the addition of the Pandaren race. It does not prove that the community wanted MoP -- which is to say that it does not prove the community wanted to visit this continent and all its hilariously romanticized portrayals of East Asia.

Furthermore, Didier's response isn't even about WoW. It's about WC3. Read the passage again. He's explicitly referencing the origin of the Pandaren Brewmaster in WC3 (initially an April Fool's joke that eventually led to an actual model being developed and included in the game as the Brewmaster).

Let me put this in a different light. The Brewmaster was in the game prior to TFT's release ('03). Your quote is in reference to Blizzard including a race in a game that predates WoW. Think about that. You're somehow using this as an example to say that the community actively wanted to visit Pandaria despite the fact that all of this took place about a decade before MoP's release.

You're obviously lost, so allow me to give you some advice. If you want to prove your thesis (that MoP was included at the request of the community), you need to do two things. First, you need to prove that a significant portion of the community actively wanted MoP. Second, you need to prove that Blizzard has based expansions on the community's opinion. Nothing else will support your thesis. It'll just make you look like you're derping all over the WoW board.
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"Erst waegen, dann wagen." - Helmuth von Moltke the Elder
#40WhitbanePosted 2/19/2013 7:48:32 AM
If it weren't for the fact that they keep reminding me that 95% of the Pandaren people are shallow stereotypes obsessed with food and beer, then I might be able enjoy the lore. Now, eh, I really don't care. Pandas are just above gnomes on my list of most annoying races.
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Twilight Sparkle is Best Pone.