This is a split board - You can return to the Split List for other boards.

20% Buff to Healing Rain, Chain Heal, and Earthliving Weapon...

#11BobTDonutPosted 3/27/2013 10:31:12 AM
From: AssultTank | #005
Actually, it's just for Mana Tide.


Oh no, it is for all three.

Ele Shamans can bring Healing Tide just a well


So you want to bring in a subpar DPS class for a healing CD that will also be subpar?

and Spirit Link suffers the same issue as Healing Rain and Chain Heal, it doesn't work if the group is spread. Hell, Ascendance has that issue too since it is based on the Shaman's healing output.


Oh no, one of our THREE healing CDs is more niche than the others. What ever will we do?

From: Kuhnert | #008
That's 25


I was speaking of both difficulties. There is a hell of a lot more to healing then pure HPS, and Shamans have more than enough utility to make up for their lower HPS numbers.
---
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/black-dragonflight/Arpandaday/advanced
http://i.imgur.com/lPu0J.gif https://i.minus.com/iOBJhbqPH5kt4.gif
#12AssultTank(Topic Creator)Posted 3/27/2013 10:44:20 AM
Honestly Bob, it's to the point where Shamans don't have much more utility these days than the other healers.

Spirit Shell is a very powerful healing CD even after the nerf, and it's on a 1 minute CD. Add in the Power Word: Barrier and honestly, a good disc priest brings amazing utility. Then add their DPS...

I don't know much about other healers having not played them.

Also, Elemental Shaman HTT isn't that much weaker.
So Resto brings two CDs that aren't that good for spread situations and one which can be brought by a DPS.
But honestly, if you're going to have a DPs use a healing CD, Druids are probably a better bet, they do more damage and have tranq which is equal to HTT.

But why would you bring a Shaman for Spirit Link Totem this tier except on the two fights where it's actually useful? Smoke Bomb and Power Word: Barrier give more damage reduction within the same range.

But just comparing a disc priest to a resto shaman, the disc priest brings a lot of DPS, a hell of a lot more utility, and does more total healing.
---
http://wh.gov/RI5h Petition to declare Westboro Baptist Church a hate group.
John 6:53 Jesus promoting cannibalism.
#13BobTDonutPosted 3/27/2013 7:49:34 PM
From: AssultTank | #012
Honestly Bob, it's to the point where Shamans don't have much more utility these days than the other healers.


No, their utility is just different than other healers. For all of 5.1 Monks had some of the crappiest spread heals in the game, and yet they certainly weren't benched.

Spirit Shell is a very powerful healing CD even after the nerf, and it's on a 1 minute CD. Add in the Power Word: Barrier and honestly, a good disc priest brings amazing utility. Then add their DPS...


Yes yes, we all know how Disc is broken. Try filling a 10 man with 2-3 Disc Priests though, or a 25 man with 5-6 of them, and see how far you get.

I don't know much about other healers having not played them.


Then why comment about how they compare to other healers if you don't even understand how they work?

Also, Elemental Shaman HTT isn't that much weaker.
So Resto brings two CDs that aren't that good for spread situations and one which can be brought by a DPS.
But honestly, if you're going to have a DPs use a healing CD, Druids are probably a better bet, they do more damage and have tranq which is equal to HTT.

But why would you bring a Shaman for Spirit Link Totem this tier except on the two fights where it's actually useful? Smoke Bomb and Power Word: Barrier give more damage reduction within the same range.


No, Ele HTT is not that great. I mean its not useless, but its not a compromise for a true Resto HTT. Also, just because you have one HTT, why would you drop out a 2nd? There is PLENTY of room in any raid for two HTT, as extra healing CDs are always welcomed. Also I am not sure where you are getting only two fights where SLT is useful. It is useful on EVERY fight, just in different ways. And again, just because some other tool does the game job, why gimp yourself another one of those tools, especially when multiple spots have to be filled?

But just comparing a disc priest to a resto shaman, the disc priest brings a lot of DPS, a hell of a lot more utility, and does more total healing.


Again, try filling a healing team with only Disc Priests. Yes, Disc is OP on absorbs, but their retroactive healing is ****. This is why you have a healing TEAM to cover other weaknesses. Trying to compare a single healer to another is silly, as healing is done through a team effort, not a solo one.
---
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/black-dragonflight/Arpandaday/advanced
http://i.imgur.com/lPu0J.gif https://i.minus.com/iOBJhbqPH5kt4.gif
#14AssultTank(Topic Creator)Posted 3/27/2013 8:37:29 PM
Honestly, two disc priests would probably do really well together. One Mastery, one crit. Mastery Disc focusing on preventing damage, Crit Disc focusing on Atonement and direct heals. Atonement is extremely powerful this tier, so honestly, you might be able to get away with both doing Atonement. It would make enrage timers a lot easier to meet as well. And making fights shorter does help make healing easier as well.

But if you have a choice between a Disc Priest and a Resto Shaman, the Disc priest is the better choice.

Every healer has a CD equal to or better than Healing Tide Totem. So honestly, this isn't that big of a deal.
Spirit Link is useful for two things. Redistributing health between players in range and reducing their damage. This works FAR better if you have multiple players as it makes it easier to keep them all alive. It was useful for certain mechanics such as p2 Chimaeron, but they've fixed it so that the health gained from it is affected by healing reduction effects.
However, this is using it as a tank cooldown pretty much. As a raid cooldown this tier, it is severely lacking.

But as you say, there is plenty of room for two HTT, however, why take two HTT when you could get HTT and Tranq AND get a healer better suited to spread out healing?
But why would you bring someone for just two or three spells when you're limited to 10 slots?
I can understand it in 25m, but there is no reason I can think of to bring a shaman in 10m over any other healing class this tier.
---
http://wh.gov/RI5h Petition to declare Westboro Baptist Church a hate group.
John 6:53 Jesus promoting cannibalism.
#15BobTDonutPosted 3/27/2013 9:16:39 PM
From: AssultTank | #014
Honestly, two disc priests would probably do really well together.


No, they don't, and they never will. There is not enough retroactive healing to have two Disc Priests in a 10 man. You can get away with a Disc Priest and a Holy Priest, but I still wouldn't say that is ideal.

But if you have a choice between a Disc Priest and a Resto Shaman, the Disc priest is the better choice.


True. Does that make Shamans bad though?

Every healer has a CD equal to or better than Healing Tide Totem. So honestly, this isn't that big of a deal.
Spirit Link is useful for two things. Redistributing health between players in range and reducing their damage. This works FAR better if you have multiple players as it makes it easier to keep them all alive. It was useful for certain mechanics such as p2 Chimaeron, but they've fixed it so that the health gained from it is affected by healing reduction effects.
However, this is using it as a tank cooldown pretty much. As a raid cooldown this tier, it is severely lacking.


You know what makes HTT so unique and awesome? You don't stop casting spells while you do it. You don't have to sit there and channel while you do it. That is a HUGE boon over both Hymn and Tranq, which are the only raid healing CDs that come close to what HTT does in terms of the mechanic itself. Yes, it is a bit weaker than Tranq and Hymn, but it has a very nice bonus attached to it. Again, you are focused far too much on numbers and not applications. The same goes for SLT. Just because you cannot get its full benefit on every single fight and situation does not make it a bad CD.

But as you say, there is plenty of room for two HTT, however, why take two HTT when you could get HTT and Tranq AND get a healer better suited to spread out healing?


Well you wouldn't take two HTT because Ele Shamans are ****. The point was just because you have one CD that doesn't make the other CD useless. You don't drop a Druid just because you have a Holy Priest, since Hymn and Tranq are effectively the same spell (yes I know there is a difference, but in the end of things they preform the same task).

But why would you bring someone for just two or three spells when you're limited to 10 slots?


Because HPS isn't the end all be all for healing, and people need to stop thinking that.

"I can understand it in 25m, but there is no reason I can think of to bring a shaman in 10m over any other healing class this tier." - Stupid quote limit

Then I suggest not making comments about the positions of current healers, especially when you have even said that you know little about other healers.
---
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/black-dragonflight/Arpandaday/advanced
http://i.imgur.com/lPu0J.gif https://i.minus.com/iOBJhbqPH5kt4.gif
#16AssultTank(Topic Creator)Posted 3/27/2013 9:31:57 PM
The thing is, I know Resto Shamans pretty well, I know the weaknesses of the class, the strengths of the class and even ways to attempt to overcome those weaknesses.

I know that this tier on pretty much every fight hits Shamans hard right in their weak point to the point where it is nearly impossible for all but the absolute top Resto Shamans to even come close to semi-overcoming the mechanics and being useful.

The point I've been trying to make is, with the mechanics of the fight, unless your shaman is pretty amazing, they're going to be next to useless outside of their utility.

The question then becomes, is the utility they bring worth having someone who is almost useless while their utility spells are on cooldown?
---
http://wh.gov/RI5h Petition to declare Westboro Baptist Church a hate group.
John 6:53 Jesus promoting cannibalism.
#17MorgasaurusPosted 3/27/2013 9:38:44 PM
I'm thankful we got a buff.
---
"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? ..."
- Matthew 16:26
#18BobTDonutPosted 3/28/2013 5:00:37 AM
From: AssultTank | #016
The thing is, I know Resto Shamans pretty well, I know the weaknesses of the class, the strengths of the class and even ways to attempt to overcome those weaknesses.

I know that this tier on pretty much every fight hits Shamans hard right in their weak point to the point where it is nearly impossible for all but the absolute top Resto Shamans to even come close to semi-overcoming the mechanics and being useful.

The point I've been trying to make is, with the mechanics of the fight, unless your shaman is pretty amazing, they're going to be next to useless outside of their utility.

The question then becomes, is the utility they bring worth having someone who is almost useless while their utility spells are on cooldown?


The only thing I can even deduct from this post is that you are not as good as you think you are. You are far too focused on their HPS (which btw, is not THAT low compared to other healers) and you are not focusing on their synergy with other healers when it is supposed to be a team effort. Stop looking at raw numbers if you can't figure out what they actually mean.
---
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/black-dragonflight/Arpandaday/advanced
http://i.imgur.com/lPu0J.gif https://i.minus.com/iOBJhbqPH5kt4.gif
#19AssultTank(Topic Creator)Posted 3/28/2013 6:26:26 AM
BobTDonut posted...
From: AssultTank | #016
The thing is, I know Resto Shamans pretty well, I know the weaknesses of the class, the strengths of the class and even ways to attempt to overcome those weaknesses.

I know that this tier on pretty much every fight hits Shamans hard right in their weak point to the point where it is nearly impossible for all but the absolute top Resto Shamans to even come close to semi-overcoming the mechanics and being useful.

The point I've been trying to make is, with the mechanics of the fight, unless your shaman is pretty amazing, they're going to be next to useless outside of their utility.

The question then becomes, is the utility they bring worth having someone who is almost useless while their utility spells are on cooldown?


The only thing I can even deduct from this post is that you are not as good as you think you are. You are far too focused on their HPS (which btw, is not THAT low compared to other healers) and you are not focusing on their synergy with other healers when it is supposed to be a team effort. Stop looking at raw numbers if you can't figure out what they actually mean.


I know HPS isn't the be-all end-all measure, but if you think 20% behind pre-buff isn't that low...
The buff itself only averages out to about a 4% buff on fights where we are able to make use of Chain Heal and Healing Rain effectively.

The problem becomes that in sustained heavy AoE situations, we can't AoE Heal. When spread to the extent people are having to spread this tier, shamans can heal ONE target at a time. Period.
Sure, I can keep that one player alive, but can the second healer keep the other 9 alive while I do that? As a third healer it can work because you can afford to have one player devoted to tank healing, one to raid, and one to help out on both. But if you're having to two heal and you have three healers, a resto shaman and any two other healers, this tier it's not even a question, you drop the Shaman for every fight save two, maybe three. Those 2-3 you might consider bringing a Shaman. The other healing classes can do almost everything a shaman can do AND they bring the ability to heal when spread or when constantly moving.

But if you have a team of players for any game, everyone is expected to pull their weight in their given position are they not? If a player is severely under-preforming at the role assigned, you bench the player until an assignment opens up that they can handle. If you have someone who is great at first base but utterly terrible at all the other positions and you also have someone better at playing not only first base but they can play shortstop or third base too, why use the first player at all unless you absolutely have to because your better first baseman is unavailable?
Healing goes for the same type of thing. If you have a class who is great at stacked standstill AoE healing but utterly terrible when the stacked portion or the standstill portion are removed and you have another class which is great at all those types of healing, why bring the first?
---
http://wh.gov/RI5h Petition to declare Westboro Baptist Church a hate group.
John 6:53 Jesus promoting cannibalism.
#20MajinUltimaPosted 3/28/2013 6:33:08 AM
The ELW buff is nice, but Healing Rain already overheals a ton when thrown on melee, which is usually the only place where it can hit a decent number of targets. Chain Heal is in a similar spot. As the premise of this thread goes, it isn't really a buff... it's a "buff", it's intended to look like a buff... but it will mostly go to overhealing or positionally unusable heals.

20% looks like big buffs but it will work out to more like 2% on effective heals.
---
Homura-chan is the coolest.
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/7899/homura02b.jpg