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Leveling as a Paladin - question on spec...

#11WaffIeElitePosted 4/15/2013 11:56:24 AM
In a response to Elaeus, Vengeance was unfortunately one of the worst things they could have done to fix a serious problem tanks have dealt with since release. Vengeance wasn't so much to make tank DPS matter, it was to trivialize threat. I actually just wrote out like a two page essay on tanking through Vanilla - Now, but I went way off course, so I got rid of it.

Unfortunately both healing and tanking have been changed to be more casual friendly. One of the major bottlenecks of guilds through Vanilla and TBC primarily were god-awful tanks, and to a lesser extent, healers. Every guild needed at least one skilled tank, and a handful of healers to even have a shot at raiding. We've seen scaling improvements, and most recently, Vengeance to utterly trivialize threat, but it's a very poor design. Vengeance starts at zero for a fight, and often scales to completely stupid and unrequired levels. Most fights in LFR, Vengeance causes tanks to do top 5 damage (Given, bad DPSers, but still), and tank swap nightmares for those who can't pay attention.

Blizzard was on the right track in Wrath when Death Knights got Bladed Armor. AP conversion from Armor was all that's needed. Now that we no longer rely on damage intake for resources, tanks have no problem there. Vengeance should simply be what Bladed Armor was - consistent, unchanging, but scaling. It's completely stupid to have your damage start at piss poor levels, but in 10 seconds into a fight be a complete powerhouse. It causes threat to be a complete joke in most situations, but on a weak-hitting boss, for offtanks picking up adds, it throws things into a loop.
#12ElaeusPosted 4/15/2013 12:25:25 PM
@WaffIe:

1- I agree that vengeance was made this ridiculous to trivialize threat, I didn't say otherwise. However the thing is I can see vengeance in principle being a fun mechanic if the modifiers weren't worked up to these levels they are on currently. So while I agree that in its current form it was a bad addition, I don't think the principle of "more received damage, more damage done" is bad actually.

I think mainly the issue would've been that with the inflation of stats coming Cata, you would see significant difference between tank and dps damage output (rolling aside threat for the sake of argument). The solution to this would have been for example getting rid of traditional tanking stats, making mastery the main source of mitigation, and then making combat stats (haste, crit,...) matter for tanks so that they would regain threat manually in a competitive way without being outdpsed to oblivion and losing threat constantly to dps. It won't surprise me if they went that route, but unlike the majority of people it seems like that I enjoy the traditional tanking stats.

2- I am not sure what your point of healing was. These days high end healers get alot of more tasks on the side other than spam healing which makes their job seriously more interesting and requires more skills than just sitting there doing nothing but healing, so I have to disagree (unless I got you wrong).
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My heart just wouldn't be in it, you know? Haven't got one.
#13bravo1Posted 4/15/2013 2:31:06 PM(edited)
To further elaborate, and I believe it's due to similar scaling mechanics that explain why Blood Boil does so much damage over Heart Strike Pre-85ish, Protection Paladins (in heirlooms) can two shot most questing mobs until 85-ish with Avenger's Shield + HoR. In leveling dungeons, tanks generally always take the lead on DPS due to vengeance. Vengeance was implemented so that tanks threat scales with DPS numbers better. If you were a sub-optimal tank it wasn't uncommon for DPS without a threat litigator (Feral Druids) to pull off a tank late in a tier. Hell, when I multibox RAF'd a Paladin, both went into dungeons as Prot, and absolutely dominated the DPS meters.

In reality, it's made threat a null mechanic, and makes tanks excel at low levels. As people begin to gear up, Tank DPS used to hit kind of a wall, as they were generally gearing for avoidance over damage, unless they had content on farm. Now, however, Tanks have moved towards being Hard Expertise capped, are gearing for haste, and other DPS stats. (Hell, Brewmasters don't use ANY avoidance stats that besides agility) so you couple this with Vengeance, and tanks start to appear in the top 5 on DPS meters. Like I said, though, the gap starts to shrink as DPS gear gets better.