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Oh Wrathion (5.4 spoilers)

#71The Catgirl FondlerPosted 7/18/2013 6:26:38 AM
The draenei didn't name their flagship "The Kil'jaedenar" or their new land "Sargerasmyst Isle."

The draenei don't brand all their banners and equipment with the insignia of the Burning Legion.

The draenei don't ceremonially title their leader the Dark Titan.

The draenei haven't erected any monuments to Archimonde.

Velen doesn't keep Sargeras' weapon of choice strapped to his back.

Basically, the reason only the orcs keep catching flak for their history is because only the orcs continue to glorify their history.


It doesn't seem like glorification so much as recognition, given how Orcish naming conventions and culture worked even before they came to Azeroth. It's less "praise us for what we did" and more like "remember what we did" because if the Orcs didn't acknowledge the more terrible parts of their history, they would just end up being accused of whitewashing or revisionism instead.
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Well you might be upset at people who killed your people, pillaged your lands, burned your kingdoms to the ground, etc. The humans were pretty nice to not outright massacre them and instead tried to force them to rebuild the places they destroyed.

As was said before, the Orcs aren't the only race to have done that sort of thing in Azeroth's history, some races even did it *before* the Orcs did and yet you rarely if ever see any of those races being held accountable for it.

For however much the Orcs should have been made to rebuild the things they destroyed, I wouldn't say the Humans get to claim the moral highground when they considered genocide in the first place and how it was the likely outcome once the Orcs' work was done, and that they only stalled in doing so because they were baffled by the Orcs sudden changes in attitude when they started coming down from the demonic corruption, and by that point Thrall had started freeing and rounding them up from the interment camps.

Speaking of which, Thrall's original plan seemed to be "get the hell out of the Eastern Kingdoms and leave the Humans alone" and that's on top of him being one of those Orcs who never participated in either of the first two wars, and yet a lot of folks still point at him as being "just as bad" as the Orcs who came through the Dark Portal, implying that it doesn't matter how much the Orcs try to not cause trouble for anybody, they'll be labeled as villains nonetheless.
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#72The Catgirl FondlerPosted 7/18/2013 6:26:55 AM
And Eredar are even less welcome on Azeroth than Orcs (except the Wrathguards that Warlocks summon, lol), what's your point? There's a big difference between "faction that has been openly rebelling and fleeing the big bad for THOUSANDS of years" and "some orcs from the last decade or two may not be so bad". There's a very clear distinction between Eredar and Draenei (except for 1 Eredar who disguised herself to screw over some Draenei on Bloodmyst). There's no particularly obvious distinction between your typical Kor'kron enforcer and an Orgrimmar grunt except their title... not really much distinction between them now and when they were legion flunkies either.

There's been attempts at distinction, such as the Old Horde of Blackrock versus Thrall's Horde, or the introduction of Fel Orcs and Mag'har in Outlands, but most people didn't care to notice any difference and lumped all of them together as "the same old Orcs" which is the crux of the problem here.

The Orcs seem subject to more acts of generalization than the other races even though the differences with those races and their "evil" subgroups might be even less obvious to the point of possible hypocrisy, like how nobody batted an eye at the idea of the Dark Irons joining the Alliance even though they were causing just as much trouble as the Blackrock Orcs at one point, or how the Humans and Night Elves have been used as agents of the Burning Legion too via the Highbourne and Scourge.
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There might be a bit more sympathy if the current Horde Orcs distinguished themselves by NOT burning and cutting down Ashenvale, by NOT invading Alterac Valley, by NOT allying with the Dragonmaw to attack the peaceful Wildhammers, etc. They might also win some points if they didn't try to kill the Alliance in Icecrown even when everyone was trying to stop the Lich King. What did they do during the Cataclysm? Tried to take Vashjir to use as a front against Stormwind! In Pandaria, they're kidnapping panda children and enslaving them to warlocks... It's not catching flak for history, it's catching flak for current events. -_-

Don't blame posters, blame bad writers. If you're going to try to make a faction sympathetic, you might not want to have them be obviously evil whenever they're presented a chance...


It's not a matter of wanting sympathy for the Orcs so much as not wanting them subject to a double standard where other races can do whatever they want (past or present) but the Orcs are given no quarter even if they *had* opted to live peacefully after changing the names on all of their stuff, seeing as people have been yelling for the Orcs to go back home even before that was a possibility in Burning Crusade. (IE: The Orcs were never given much of a chance in the first place, player-wise anyway.)

Though the poor writing from Cataclysm and Mists doesn't help things lore-wise, seeing as it pretty much abolished what little "grey & grey" morality there was between the Alliance and Horde and opted to try and make the entire Horde (even the Tauren) out to be evil ...and yet somehow that constitutes as "Horde favortism". (Yeah, because getting a quest to kill off survivors of the only vaguely Horde-friendly Human city that we just nuked makes me feel like Blizzard loves the hell out of that faction.)

Frankly I'm not one for favoritism with either faction and have played both, but playing Horde these last two expansions has been abysmal from a narrative point of view and just generally felt less fun because as much as I don't like the double standard that gets applied to the Orcs (if not the entire Horde), Blizzard seems to want to keep it up, with Mists ending on a ambiguous note for the Horde because even though Varian leaves them to rebuild, there's no telling if Blizzard will actually let the Horde redeem its self at some point or let the Alliance screw up badly too. (I'm pretty sure Undercity is next on the **** list.)
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#73Neo_HeartlessPosted 7/18/2013 7:06:43 AM
The problem I have with Alliance screaming MUH ASHENVALE is that, yes the Orcs did cut down a load of trees and were CORRUPTED into killing a Demigod, but said Demigod didn't even give the Orcs a chance to explain themselves. The Night Elves just came in and went "look at these ugly brutes lets pepper them with arrows!" and then Cenarius came along and did the demigod equivalent of "NUH UH THIS IS MY HOUSE AND WE DON'T CUT DOWN TREES IN MY HOUSE".

Only Malfurion had the sense to say "maybe we should actually try talking to this group" and helped the Orcs who in turn helped Malfurion defend the World Tree and defeat the Legion.

So the Orcs moved away and settled in durotar, a pretty inhospitable place, but they still needed wood, and here's this lovely big forest, full of wood which the Night elves have shown they can regrow, and who also have wisps to harvest wood without harming the trees. Did the Night Elves decide to teach the Tauren of the Cenarion Circle how to call the wisps to harvest all this wood? Nope! Malfurion couldn't even be bothered to teach his BFF Hamuul how to do so. Instead the Night Elves just kept going MUH ASHENVALE. So the Orcs come in and start carving their initials in trees and sticking the fingers up at the Night Elves because god forbid one side in this whole debacle actually show some maturity.

Oh, and then the Worgen come along and the Night Elves go YOU LOOK LIKE PRETTY COOL DUDES, LETS SHOW YOU HOW TO INTO WISPS!
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#74Sir WillPosted 7/18/2013 7:18:29 AM
Speaking of which, Thrall's original plan seemed to be "get the hell out of the Eastern Kingdoms and leave the Humans alone" and that's on top of him being one of those Orcs who never participated in either of the first two wars, and yet a lot of folks still point at him as being "just as bad" as the Orcs who came through the Dark Portal, implying that it doesn't matter how much the Orcs try to not cause trouble for anybody, they'll be labeled as villains nonetheless.

Yeah, they tried to leave the humans alone. Granted, they ticked off the NEs, but to be fair, how were they supposed to know they lived there? The NEs didn't explain or try to compromise with the orcs about the trees, they just started attacking. Now obviously after they temporarily teamed up to save the world relations broke down again but at least that's an understandable dispute. Horde needed wood, NEs claimed all the trees and wouldn't negotiate, so the Horde did what it had to do.
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#75SA_X_Mk_IIPosted 7/18/2013 7:56:42 AM
Humans are the worst. You want to know how many Tauren and Half-Tauren get killed every year to make enough beef for their burgers?
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#76AceronPosted 7/18/2013 10:23:19 AM
MajinUltima posted...
There might be a bit more sympathy if the current Horde Orcs distinguished themselves by NOT burning and cutting down Ashenvale, by NOT invading Alterac Valley, by NOT allying with the Dragonmaw to attack the peaceful Wildhammers, etc. They might also win some points if they didn't try to kill the Alliance in Icecrown even when everyone was trying to stop the Lich King. What did they do during the Cataclysm? Tried to take Vashjir to use as a front against Stormwind! In Pandaria, they're kidnapping panda children and enslaving them to warlocks... It's not catching flak for history, it's catching flak for current events. -_-


People have explained Ashenvale well enough. I'll skip that.
The Stormpike Expedition are the aggressors in Alterac Valley. The Frostwolf clan was exiled to the Valley for refusing the drink Demon's Blood. They found the valley uninhabited and barely habitable. They built their village and eked out a subsistance life until the Dwarves showed up and started strip mining the place for artifacts, driving off what little game there was and threatening to starve the Frostwolves to death.
Garrosh was the general of the Northrend campaign, so yeah.
The alliance started the war during the cataclysm. (albiet due to trickery on the part of the Twilight cultists)
And the alliance in Pandaria was using Pandaren children as slave labor to build their airfields.
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#77Kanus_oq_SerunaPosted 7/18/2013 2:01:15 PM
Cenarius responded as he did, pretty much because it's his job. Likewise, the last time a sudden and random unknown race started causing problems in the area, the legion was responsible. What did it take to kill Cenarius? The same Legion Lieutenant who oversaw the creation of a portal that allowed the legion entry to Azeroth. The orcs devistated the forest by the time Cenarius responded, and they made no effort to explain themselves to begin with. Grom wasn't exactly peaceful, that should have been clear the moment he stirred up issues with the humans.

As for Kul Tiras, I have only marginal sympethy for them. Jaina obviously came in response to Medihv. However, the other forces likely followed the orcs. Why? Because the orcs had escaped encampment and might be rallying for a new conquest. The humans did not know the full picture until the death of Grom. Likewise, for all the humans knew, the orcs would return. Since the first encounter with the orcs, all humanity has known are blood thirsty conquerors.

Their history basically bit back hard many times, and yet, at this point, the humans have gotten over the old horde. This is the chance for Varian to pay the orcs back in full for Stormwind, and he leaves it intact.
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#78Sir WillPosted 7/18/2013 2:33:40 PM
they made no effort to explain themselves to begin with

The Night Elves were the aggressors!


This is the chance for Varian to pay the orcs back in full for Stormwind

And eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Doing that would just make the situation worse. I'm glad he's not that petty.

Not to mention many of the orcs still around aren't responsible for that.
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#79MajinUltimaPosted 7/18/2013 3:53:57 PM
Alterac wasn't invaded by the Horde

--The Frostwolf Clan's continued presence suggests otherwise.

The problems in Ashenvale were caused by events during the 3rd war, in which neither side was innocent.

--Last I checked, that's night elf land. Even under Thrall, Orcs were still cutting it down. They choose Durotar because it's rough and will test them... then they start attacking other areas because "oh right Durotar sucks".

The problems in Icecrown were actually as much Varian's fault as Garrosh's

--Neither were involved in the Broken Front events where the Horde outright attacked the Alliance as soon as the latter's back was turned, impeding the push on Icecrown and killing more soliders to be raised as scourge. The logic the Horde commander uses? "lol stupid Alliance shouldn't turn their backs on us even in the face of a common and global foe!" Keep in mind this is from the HORDE's perspective in Icecrown.

Oh, and the Alliance are using the Pandaren as slave labour as well, so get that out of your head.

--Not really. Blizzard didn't portray the labor as being particularly slavish at all, the most grievous complaint from the pandaren "slaves" is that they haven't had a break in a few hours. It came off more that the Alliance is used to rigid labor hours but that pandaren are largely mellow and lazy. That's just a tiny bit different from children, ONLY children, being stalked by floaty eye demons in a camp of warlocks trying to summon demons. Again, I've played both questlines.

Speaking of which, Thrall's original plan seemed to be "get the hell out of the Eastern Kingdoms and leave the Humans alone"

--Next logical step should've been "Oh, Nagrand is fine and our people are there? Screw Durotar, let's go home! Oh, and, by the way thanks Alliance, particularly the Allerian holdouts, for saving our planet from the Legion."
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#80MajinUltimaPosted 7/18/2013 4:08:02 PM
There's been attempts at distinction, such as the Old Horde of Blackrock versus Thrall's Horde, or the introduction of Fel Orcs and Mag'har in Outlands, but most people didn't care to notice any difference and lumped all of them together as "the same old Orcs" which is the crux of the problem here.

--Distinction doesn't work when it's Thrall's own Frostwolf Clan attacking native dwarves in Alterac. When the "peaceful" people of the "peaceful" Warchief are STILL waging war, what difference is there from the people who are still suffering from Orc invasions? Unless you're saying the Frostwolves aren't part of Thrall's Horde...

The current generation of "good" Horde Orcs is at fault for not distinguishing themselves from other violent warmongering Orcs. When the Darkspear sent emissaries to Stormwind in Cataclysm, Varian did not order them promptly massacred, he heard them out and allowed heroes to assist them. He even tried to reopen relations with the Blood Elves in MOP. So the Alliance is quite willing to accept and negotiate peacefully with factions that distinguish themselves. Maybe some Orcs should try it sometime... but most current Horde Orcs turned their backs on Thrall, so it shows how much most Orcs value peace.

Frankly I'm not one for favoritism with either faction and have played both, but playing Horde these last two expansions has been abysmal from a narrative point of view and just generally felt less fun because as much as I don't like the double standard that gets applied to the Orcs (if not the entire Horde),

--It's bad writing really. Attempts to equate the factions don't pan out because one faction, two races specifically (Orcs and Undead), are frequently acting very obviously evil. I played both factions in SWTOR as well, and the narrative didn't try to present the Sith as having moral equivalency to the Jedi, because that would just be stupid.

It's no less stupid here, which is largely why Vol'jin and Lor'themar are quite popular right now and Sylvanas has just been kept out of the lore spotlight for this expansion. So the lore itself is scapegoating a majority of Orcs, rightly so, as being what is wrong with the Horde, and keeping Sylvanas out of sight so that the Undead's issues don't muddy up the scapegoating. This is something that's been coming since TBC at least.

Humans are the worst. You want to know how many Tauren and Half-Tauren get killed every year to make enough beef for their burgers?

--If they didn't want to be eaten, they shouldn't be so tasty. My Blood Elf hates Thunder Bluff, she can't find a good burger anywhere.
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