What's the minimum number of monsters needed to beat the game?

#1BareknuckleRooPosted 1/23/2012 5:39:56 AM
I'm curious about trying a monster-only run. I've done solo human and solo esper/mutant before, and they're certainly more than capable of taking down the final boss, but I'm wondering what the minimum number of monsters needed to beat the game is? Assume that the Saw glitch is disallowed; you have to beat the enemies some other way instead of just taking advantage of it to take out Ashura, etc. I've read that none of the monsters are strong enough to take out the final bosses alone; would a duo of DarkRoses work or something?

Admittedly, I don't use monsters enough when I play the game normally. I tend to much prefer them in the sequel (or robots for that matter).
#2_KazPosted 1/23/2012 10:04:56 AM
I believe Alex Jackson did an experiment for just that and it was deemed that a solo-monster run was impossible without abusing the SAW. (A duo of Hi-Slimes, and a lot of luck/save-state manipulation, went far though.)
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Fighter: "Mr Pibb", "Dr Pepper".. I'm onto you..
Kaz Fact: Welcome to Version 2.0!
#3BareknuckleRoo(Topic Creator)Posted 1/24/2012 6:37:15 PM
Looking over the monsters for potential endgame options... wow. Pretty much everything is crap. It's even worse than picking monsters for FFLII to go up against the final boss (at least in the sequel he's not immune to fire/ice/lit/gas). Is it me or is the only monster even remotely worthwhile a HiSlime?

I see a few monsters like FensWolf have Revive, but it only heals themselves to full HP in battle and not the whole party. HiSlimes have both a drain attack and P-Blast at least, I can't see anything else even close to being as useful for FFL1's final boss...
#4_KazPosted 1/26/2012 10:45:58 AM
BareknuckleRoo posted...
... Is it me or is the only monster even remotely worthwhile a HiSlime?

No.

Let me elaborate: Sorry, but no.

The final-tier monsters are great for support (like Kirin or Anubis), but none of them have that "killer arsenal". Especially against someone with over 100 DEF like the final boss. (So even a multi-hitting physical move, like Tiamat's 4Heads or Kraken's 8Legs or Lilith's 6Arms, would only be useful for so long. But they are still better than the 3-move final attacks like Whirl or Tornado or Flare.) Ghosts are faster Hi-Slimes, but their 119 fewer HP make them a higher risk.

Also: Go Robots!
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Fighter: "Mr Pibb", "Dr Pepper".. I'm onto you..
Kaz Fact: Welcome to Version 2.0!
#5BareknuckleRoo(Topic Creator)Posted 1/26/2012 1:01:33 PM
Ki-Rin or Anubis might be handy for support earlier on in like the 4th world if you can get 'em there where you're not up against something that has 200 def and resistance to all elements, but I just don't see anything else that could be nearly as helpful against the final boss (Ki-Rin's Cure isn't nearly as useful when the enemy uses non-elemental full party attacks repeatedly, not to mention it doesn't seem to be worth the offensive drop when the final boss can't be hit with Elec). Hi-Slimes might not have as many offensive options, but they're at least able to take out the final boss thanks to having not one, but two absurdly strong non-elemental non-physical damage sources in the form of Melt and P-Blast.

I think judging by your reaction you missed the "I can't see anything else even close to being as useful for FFL1's final boss"... I might not have been clear enough when I was lamenting how limited the selection is as far as helpful monsters for fighting Ashura and especially Creator.
#6_KazPosted 1/27/2012 12:19:45 AM
BareknuckleRoo posted...
I think judging by your reaction you missed the "I can't see anything else even close to being as useful for FFL1's final boss"... I might not have been clear enough when I was lamenting how limited the selection is as far as helpful monsters for fighting Ashura and especially Creator.

*facepalm*

My fault. I misread. (Even after quoting your post...)

I read "Is it me or is the only monster even remotely worthwhile a HiSlime?"

..as. ..Is it me or is there another monster even remotely worthwhile a HiSlime?

Yeah.

Hence my bit about the monster selection in this game being limited to Human/Mutant support. Well, Mutant support. Humans are kicking all sorts of butt.
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Fighter: "Mr Pibb", "Dr Pepper".. I'm onto you..
Kaz Fact: Welcome to Version 2.0!
#7BareknuckleRoo(Topic Creator)Posted 1/27/2012 7:51:44 AM
Meh, not a big deal.

It's kind of sad how much Creator's stats and resistances simply shut down the majority of most monsters. Being unable to break the past two digits in attack and get any powerful endgame weapons/attacks means that 200 def is a brick wall for those that rely on physicals. Spellcasters like Ki-Rin who would normally be quite impressive otherwise are ruined because the only thing that'd actually hurt him is a tiny usage non-elemental move. And it's sad especially because monsters aren't that bad otherwise after you experiment and get some good ones against most enemies (although less impressive than in FFL2).

At least with FFL2's final boss he doesn't resist fire/ice/lit, so many monsters have some serious utility here, although it's heavily biased towards those with draining attacks again, mostly due to the lack of full-party healing abilities. If there IS actually a monster in FFL2 that has something that can heal-all in battle like a Heal Staff, I would love to know about it.
#8_KazPosted 1/27/2012 1:03:14 PM
It has been awhile, but how do FFL1 monsters with 99 STR work against Creator? Not their 1x or 2x hit moves, but moves like 4heads or 6arms which scale upward with each landed hit. (Although, those attacks are usually limited to 5...)

Was it possible to use Elixir or Arcane in battle? (Moot for an all-monster team, but I was thinking of a scenario where a crappy human/esper would refresh a monster's powerful attacks.) In FFL2, I believe Elixirs were viable in-battle items.

Speaking of FFL2, the final boss may have been more forgiving, but the penultimate boss... Aegis at almost all times? If you didn't have a time limit while fighting him (or a 5th party member), an all-monster team would be toast. Only non-elemental non-physical attacks (e.g. Beam, Whirl) would affect the penultimate boss.

There IS a monster with Heal Staff... well, Heart MAGI actually. The LiveOrk or Treant or whatever the final variety of tree-creature has a limited-use, full-party recovery (but does not recover abilities?) Life move. It is the only creature with it.
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Fighter: "Mr Pibb", "Dr Pepper".. I'm onto you..
Kaz Fact: Welcome to Version 2.0!
#9BareknuckleRoo(Topic Creator)Posted 1/27/2012 2:19:14 PM
"It has been awhile, but how do FFL1 monsters with 99 STR work against Creator? Not their 1x or 2x hit moves, but moves like 4heads or 6arms which scale upward with each landed hit. (Although, those attacks are usually limited to 5...)"

I tried it using the Legendary Fight battle simulator (http://towerreversed.org/download.html) since I don't have a team there at the moment to test with. Set my team to Kraken, Lilith, Ki Rin and Tiamat. I've also listed the damage with a HiSlime for comparison.

Kraken: 8Legs hit for no damage even with all 8 hits connecting, Whirl hit for 130-150.

Lilith: 6Arms does no damage even with 4 hits. Laughably, Tail was at least able to do damage (although it didn't even reach 2 digit damage most of the time).

Tiamat: Literally the only attack Creator doesn't resist is 4Heads. At only 5 uses and only 86 damage tops (assuming all 4 hits connect which isn't too often), not looking very useful. Poor dragons. ;_;

Ki-Rin: Tornado did nothing! O_o Apparently it's considered ice elemental, something I just learned, yay. Horn does a pathetic 15 damage or so. So basically, incapable of even hurting Creator.

HiSlime: Melt was hitting for 296-331. On a 10 use move. O_o Amusingly, P-Blast only did 190-242. They may not have as many uses of attacks skills as other monsters (Tiamats have plenty of uses of elemental magic), but the few attacks they get are ridiculously strong.

I'm guessing the reason multihit attacks get nerfed so badly by enemies with high defense is the defence is applied to every single hit. Even trying it out against Ashura, I couldn't get a Kraken or Lilith's multihits to do any sort of damage, whereas a Ganesha's Bash wasn't entirely crap. Tiamat's 4Heads does pretty well against Ashura actually (200s easily) but it's ultimately the fact that Tiamat lacks any other non-elemental attacks that makes them bad endgame material for bosses.

"Was it possible to use Elixir or Arcane in battle?"

Ugh, the memories... a long time ago I had to restart a solo-human run from scratch (why I was trying one my second time through the game I don't know) and I stupidly saved inside the room with WarMech/Machine. I'd stocked up on Elixirs for the boss fight, only to discover the game doesn't let you use Elixirs in battle. So. Annoying. Since X-Potions are obviously insufficient to keep up with his damage I had to restart and power up enough to kill him with straight attacking before he could kill me.

"but the penultimate boss... Aegis at almost all times?"

Yeah, the only time he ditches the Aegis is at the transformation, and I think he still retains the elemental resistances. It might be doable with a set of draining monsters, but I'd agree he's harder than Arsenal to take down for monsters.

"There IS a monster with Heal Staff... well, Heart MAGI actually. The LiveOrk or Treant or whatever the final variety of tree-creature has a limited-use, full-party recovery (but does not recover abilities?) Life move. It is the only creature with it."

Cool. I usually stick with the final-tier ghost/sword/fairy types but I might have just have to try one out.
#10BareknuckleRoo(Topic Creator)Posted 1/27/2012 2:42:51 PM
Playing with the battle simulator some more, discovered some cool stuff...

Ashura can be very easily beaten with a team of 4 Anubises. He's actually undead, so Uncurse (undead dispelling) actually does like 350 damage a pop (a good chance of beating his 2000 HP down in a damage race). They have Mirror to boost AGI with to avoid those multihit attacks and can use self-revive to heal from Flare... very nice choice of monsters. Also, he has lacks a resistance to Quake, and there's a number of high-level monsters like Mazin with it.

...after typing this I realize it's impossible to get top-tier monsters before Ashura due to only the Fiend2 meat bumping you up to max level. Damn. Well, there's always Cicadas (second-highest tier, low HP but drink does appreciable damage to Ashura).

I'm still thinking that vs. bosses HiSlimes are the god tier of the game thanks to Melt doing obnoxiously high damage to everything, but I'm now determined to see if there's any monster groups that can wipe Creator out without resorting to a HiSlime.