Question about improvised class balance

#1usernameherePosted 9/6/2013 4:39:29 PM
Basically, the big idea is to figure out in-game ways to help the classes stand out from each other.

For example, giving the classes different restrictions to further differentiate them from each other.

One idea I've had was to stop giving Humans stat-increasing potions once they reach the displayed limit of 99 and 999. Hopefully this will keep them playable without being the late-game steamrollers they currently are.

On the next level of complexity, setting different limits depending on the Character's gender. For Humans, Males would have 99 Max Strength, 70 Max Agility and 999 Max HP. Females would have 70 Max Strength, 99 Max Agility and 700 Max HP.

Mutants would be restricted based on weapons. Besides the obvious Mana weapons, Male Mutants can only Strength weapons while Female Mutants can only use Agility weapons. Neither can use Projectile weapons.
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"Do you see my ship? Does it look OK to you??" -Falco
#2DragonAtmaPosted 9/6/2013 5:53:23 PM(edited)
Why cap their stats or limit their equipment? My suggestion:

Humans:

Str30. Str60. Str99.
Agi30. Agi60. Agi99.
HP250. HP 500. HP 750.

And, presumably, limit them to the amount instead of providing a slight boost afterwards (which would mean maxes of 99 for stats and 750 HP). values 0-256 are used up; we may have to remove up to four items/skills to make room.

Mutants:

In particular, why let males reach 999 HP but females only reach 700 HP? Instead, they should redo the statgain formulas -- and, of course, have it depend on the current stat and the first monster group's rank. My suggestion:

* Pick a stat as follows -- only that stat may increase:
HP 6/32
Attack 7/32 (male) or 5/32 (female)
Def (1/32)
Agi 5/32 (male) or 7/32 (female)
Mana (9/32)
Skill (4/32)

* If it's not skill, the chance it increases by 1-4 (or 8-12 if HP) is ((enemystat*10)-(yourstat*10)+128) out of 256.
* If it DOES pick a skill, then for now have it pick a skill at random. If we get an actual coder (i.e. not me), then I can whip up a formula that picks skills based on monster rank -- rank 1 monsters won't be giving Flare, and top-rank monsters *probably* won't be giving xFire.

As always, the formula can be changed as needed.

And, of course, females will start with a rapier, not a saber. XD
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#3usernamehere(Topic Creator)Posted 9/7/2013 2:18:10 AM
My goal was to give a different reason to use either gender. However, since ROM hacking is not within many people's reach, I am attempting to achieve my goal by restricting my playing style in particular ways.

As things stand now, there's no reason NOT to start with Female classes.

The ability to start with a Saber makes for either great temporary attack power or the ability to outfit your party with 1000 G of cash. Also, Agility is a multi-purpose stat and Female characters have lots of it when they start.

Since Strength and HP are single-purpose stats, Male Humans would have both stats high while Female Humans would have both of them lower in exchange for higher Agility.

As for Mutants, restricting weapons will make them evolve differently since we can't directly control stat growth. Sure, we can influence it but ultimately, they grow how they want.
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#4DragonAtmaPosted 9/7/2013 12:00:17 PM
The way I see it, gender shouldn't force someone into being str-based or agi-based. All around the 'net, there are stories about agile males and strong females. Adding that to a game feels wrong, especially since Saga games never did that.

As for agility, all that's needed would be to mode str weapons to use str for accuracy instead of agi.

And for mutants, you could adjust the skill learning (some skills are more likely for males, other more likely for females).

Do keep in mind it's possible to do SOME editing without programming -- specifically, if I can find the data tables I can adjust them as needed. I'd say there's a 90% chance I could (say) find and raise the cost of agi weapons. That only goes so far, though.
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Nagas on a plane! ^_^
#5usernamehere(Topic Creator)Posted 9/7/2013 4:56:49 PM
I'm looking at this from a game balance point of view with a general basis in reality. Political correctness isn't really a factor to me. Like it or not, however, the peaks of physical performance in real life are held by men.
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"Do you see my ship? Does it look OK to you??" -Falco
#6usernamehere(Topic Creator)Posted 9/7/2013 5:37:14 PM
As for finding the database for the stats, how familiar are you with a debugger?
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"Do you see my ship? Does it look OK to you??" -Falco
#7DragonAtmaPosted 9/7/2013 8:20:49 PM(edited)
Althoguh the peaks are held by men, women aren't THAT far behind.

As for debuggers, I have little experience with them because I'm not good at programming. I can find data tables, though -- see http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/588352-gemfire/57244204 as an example. Uncompressed graphics I can find too, although I imagine editing weapon stats and such are more important here...

EDIT: Hmm... maybe the maximums are further apart than I thought; the olympic record for weightlifting (snatch/clean&jerk/total) is 212/263/472 kg for males and 151/187/333 kg for females. But even so, nothing stops IRL females from being amazingly strong, nor are men stopped from being amazingly agile. Why should the game be different when the world's strongest woman could lift two normal-weight men at once?
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Nagas on a plane! ^_^
#8usernamehere(Topic Creator)Posted 9/8/2013 1:38:37 AM
Let's see...

472 kg / 333 kg = ~ 1.42 : 1

99 Male Max / 70 Female Max = ~ 1.41 : 1 (Those are the values I posted earlier)

While 99 is the strongest, 70 is still very strong.
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"Do you see my ship? Does it look OK to you??" -Falco
#9DamageIncPosted 9/8/2013 5:42:15 PM
Um... the humans in FFL are accumulating strength on par with the universe's creator through some pretty advanced chemistry and/or magic. Arguments of gender are a little bit ridiculous here people -- the game does it right IMO by giving different starting stat balance which you end up totally readjusting with potions.

Putting caps based on gender is IMO totally lame. I don't think there needs to be a gameplay difference btwn genders in the same race in a game like this, it can be simply for aesthetic purposes. The starting equipment problem could be easily rebalanced just by not giving the Human F a ridiculous starting weapon. (Can't remember if Mutant F starts with one too.)
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#10usernamehere(Topic Creator)Posted 9/9/2013 3:17:47 AM
Female Mutants also start with a Saber. I believe the programmers' intent was to give the 2nd rank agility-based weapon to Females rather than the 2nd-rank strength-based weapon. However, they forgot about the Whip.

The other possibility is the Japanese tendency to create Female-specific boosts that Males don't have access to. I've especially noticed this in the Dragon Quest series.

While creating gender-based stat limits is the base of my logic, my ultimate goal is game balance within the differences.
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"Do you see my ship? Does it look OK to you??" -Falco