Various questions:

#1BareknuckleRooPosted 12/16/2012 10:59:11 AM
Playing through this again with Mutant/Robot/2xMonster. A few questions/things I've noticed:

* Monsters suck early game, even moreso than FFL1. I should not have eaten any meat and stuck with the Baby Dragons because their flame ability is way more useful than stuff you can get early on. I'm just at Giant's World and only now have I gotten something that isn't a Fly/Toad/Lizard/Spider. The best I managed in Ashura's world was a Red Bone, which is pretty laughable (and the next meat I ate brought it back to something even suckier). Amoebas are actually pretty useful thanks to Dissolve + Acid. Mid-Late game monsters are still pretty competitive and useful (in part because the final boss doesn't resist spell damage, so even stuff like Fire works), although it sucks that only two monsters get to evolve to the highest level.

* Ashura is friggin' powerful. He has Flame, a hit-all attack, and a physical attack that's almost a guaranteed oneshot on anyone who isn't Mask. Robots loaded with Sabres can hit as hard as Mask can thankfully, but without Mask around I find it hard to imagine Ashura can be beaten without any Robots as he has O-Damage. Humans and Mutants can't rely on Magic and there aren't any useful Monsters yet. Theoretically, you could keep an Imp along and Sleep Ashura repeatedly, but I think piling on SMGs and unloading those would probably be the safest way if you didn't have Mask?

* Is it possible to get a Human or Mutant to match Mask's absurdly inflated stats? I know that the stronger you are relative to the enemy, the less chance of the skill you're training will raise, but is there a cutoff point where the enemy is so weak that you will never see your stats rise? Mask is so powerful that the only way to match him in damage at that point is with a Robot that's got Sabres piled on it seems.
#2DCdemonic1Posted 12/16/2012 3:54:15 PM
To answer your question about stat gain rates, there's a base chance you always have. I don't know off hand what the base is and what the per level is on the original as I use Amuseum's NeoFFL2 which changed some of the values (which I then further changed).
#3BareknuckleRoo(Topic Creator)Posted 12/16/2012 4:47:45 PM
I know what the base values listed on Amuseum's site are; are those values not modified based on the enemy you're fighting, whether or not you score a kill, etc? Because I swear it seems to be much harder levelling in the first world than against stronger enemies (maybe it uses DS value to determine enemy strength?). Just curious, cause I swear I always seem to have better growth rates for humans/mutants when fighting stronger enemies.
#4DCdemonic1Posted 12/16/2012 8:01:02 PM
There's a base value and an added value based on level difference. The changelog for neoFFL2 is:
Human
--HP: 5+10 per level == 2.5%+5% per level
--Str, Mana: 5+15 per level == 2.5%+7.5% per level
--Agl: 5+20 per level == 2.5%+10% per level
Mutant
--Skill: 15+15 per level == 7.5%+7.5% per level
--HP: 5+5 per level == 2.5%+2.5% per level
--Str, Mana, Def: 5+10 per level == 2.5%+5% per level
--Agl: 5+15 per level == 2.5%+7.5% per level

I'd have to look at the code for the game to see what the original's is, but I don't have a copy handy.
#5HesaconPosted 12/16/2012 8:05:25 PM
Get a punch down to 1 use left. Hit Asura with it. He dies in one hit.

50 GP got you through a tough boss and you leveled your AGI at the same time.
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#6BareknuckleRoo(Topic Creator)Posted 12/16/2012 10:37:13 PM(edited)
Growth rates are so slow in the original FFL2 that it seems like the skills are actually one of the better sources of single target boss damage (but then you need to use them until they only have 1 or 2 hits left, at which point they're effectively limited boss nukes). Robots seem to be much more competitive as far as single-target attackers go for a good portion of the game, up until when Mana attacks start becoming common enough that the extra damage they're hit for spellwise starts making them a bit of a durability liability (Robot + Laser swords = dead Venus, lol). The last time I used a robot was in a 4 robot run which was when I seriously learned to pile on the stats instead of trying to balance (or I simply went all def and used guns, which is kinda lame).

There's a base value and an added value based on level difference.


So basically, you always have at minimum that base value to rely on, but if you fight stronger enemies, you get a better chance of an increase? What determines your own 'level'; your own characters don't have their own DS level calculated based on their total stats or something do they? Also, does the game calculate what stat each weapon trains based on the stat the weapon raises for a robot or something?

Massive enemy groups (3 different types with 3+ in each) are way more common, so I find myself almost never using single-target swords and resorting to Grenades/spells early on when possible.

I also forgot how hard that monster-in-a-box in the Venus World sewers is; it's a massive leap in difficulty considering Mephistos and Phantoms easily hit for 300+ with spells and Phantoms drain health. If you're unprepared for it you're pretty much asking to get wiped.

Does anyone else try to avoid using Magi? I try not to equip it or use any nowadays because I feel if I rely too much on it I'm too underpowered when it's forceably stripped from me near the end of the game, and I no longer can use it to boost stats for attacking. That and it feels dirty using it when everyone tells you how dangerous it is to abuse Magi, haha.
#7HesaconPosted 12/17/2012 2:20:53 PM
I tend not to use Magi, but that's more for stat growth. Since my stats are lower, I get stat boosts more often.

I usually throw a defense Magi on a robot in the first slot of the party, though.
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SoV - Enlightened Oracle
http://darkstorm.villanousity.com
#8BareknuckleRoo(Topic Creator)Posted 12/17/2012 8:44:38 PM
Does equipping Magi actually effect your stat growth? I know with stuff that raises it in the status screen (Giant gear, Hermes shoes, etc) your growth is noticeably slower because your stat is treated as the equipement boosted value (and not the base value), but I always thought since Magi doesn't visibly increase your stats that it wouldn't impact your growth rate when equipping them.
#9HesaconPosted 12/18/2012 6:07:13 AM
I'm thinking the remake, you're right.
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http://darkstorm.villanousity.com
#10_KazPosted 12/18/2012 2:04:42 PM
BareknuckleRoo posted...
Ashura is friggin' powerful. He has Flame, a hit-all attack, and a physical attack that's almost a guaranteed oneshot on anyone who isn't Mask.

High-defense characters survive. Cobbles (and possibly Pebbles) take almost no damage. Cobbles can be obtained from Amoebas (which also can survive 6-arms, IIRC).

Problem is, DEF is hard to gain without some grinding or if your robot is a walking shield. Mask is really your ace-in-the-hole against Ashura, but if he's somehow dead, any monster with Sleep (Imps or Faeries-from-BabyD), Stone (Medusas-from-BabyD), Stun (no monster has a Para ability yet so Whip is the only "paralysis" attack), even Poison work. Fog and Sleep books also help. Your humans can use them if you train up their Mana.

Heh. Totally forgot. Hesacon also brings up a great point with 1-use Kicks and Punches.

BareknuckleRoo posted...
Massive enemy groups (3 different types with 3+ in each) are way more common, so I find myself almost never using single-target swords and resorting to Grenades/spells early on when possible.

And those weapons really wear out quickly (SMGs, Grenades, Bazooka, etc.) that you then lean on spells.
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