I do not expect as much out ot TL2 as D3 long term--but

#11TheCurseX2Posted 10/5/2012 3:45:49 PM
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9989/infographiclarge.png

This is the primary reason why D3 sucks by comparison to something like D2 and TL2.

They can add in all the Ubers/Infernal Machine events they want and Paragon levels but those are just beating around the inherent flaws the game holds just because of how goddamn boring the entire treasure system is. Taking away stat allocation has indirectly harmed what could've been "fun items" for more mandatory. You basically need to have three certain statistics to roll on any given item and in a high enough number range for it to be of use.

Not to mention the builds in D3 don't feel like builds. I don't feel that level of committing to a build and having one character specialized in this way. I feel like the Swiss Army knife of the world and am carrying more gadgets than Batman for any given situation. Why stay with my dedicated set-up when I can just switch out for better abilities suited for this challenge and succeed easily? It's too much of a load-out ala Call of Duty and it works in those games but in these types of games it takes away a lot of thrills. Plus, with how weapon DPS and abilities work, you really can't have interesting and out of ordinary characters. Already in TL2 can you have true Melee Mages where in D3, the Wizard is entirely reliant on Spectral Blades which isn't even a true melee skill. Because there's no reason to ever use the default auto-attack, you don't need to look out for a good caster-related sword that carries a hefty bite with it, but you can easily use a little wand or staff and the result remains the same.

The only real interesting build D3 really had come out was the WW Barbarian and after that, it is possible to make one based on the clunky Weapon Throw/Ancient Spear skills and then it all crumbles because there's little variation past that. A Frenzy Barbarian and a Whirlwind Barbarian in D2 both did melee damage but both played much differently. That's lacking because D3's design is too flawed to allow for such.
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#12naughtydog2kO3Posted 10/6/2012 2:45:25 AM
How come nobody ever mentions Titan Quest when they compare Diablow 3 to D2 and TL2? That is also a great game as well that does things better than Diablow 3.
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#13DragonswkapPosted 10/6/2012 5:13:56 AM
TheCurseX2 posted...

The only real interesting build D3 really had come out was the WW Barbarian and after that, it is possible to make one based on the clunky Weapon Throw/Ancient Spear skills and then it all crumbles because there's little variation past that. A Frenzy Barbarian and a Whirlwind Barbarian in D2 both did melee damage but both played much differently. That's lacking because D3's design is too flawed to allow for such.


You hate D3 I get it, but there are more interesting builds than 1 for every character class, not just barbarian. Far more than TL2, oh and you can experiment in D3 without having to level up a whole new character again and again and again, or cheating like TL2. You can get through all of TL2 spamming one skill over and over and over and over again with no skill what so ever. The game gets boring fast. I've put 60 hours into torchlight 2 and am starting to feel like i'm not getting anywhere, I'm level 80 and i haven't' replaced most of my gear in 30 levels why? Because the orange items that drop are worse than items 30 levels before them, or are the same ones over and over again. The loot in TL2 starts out great, but goes south FAST, I feel like there is no hope in finding better items while after 350 HOURS of Diablo 3 I still enjoy experimenting with builds and getting loot and progressing through inferno.
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#14TehAssasinPosted 10/6/2012 5:25:05 AM
TheCurseX2 posted...
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9989/infographiclarge.png

This is the primary reason why D3 sucks by comparison to something like D2 and TL2.

They can add in all the Ubers/Infernal Machine events they want and Paragon levels but those are just beating around the inherent flaws the game holds just because of how goddamn boring the entire treasure system is. Taking away stat allocation has indirectly harmed what could've been "fun items" for more mandatory. You basically need to have three certain statistics to roll on any given item and in a high enough number range for it to be of use.

Not to mention the builds in D3 don't feel like builds. I don't feel that level of committing to a build and having one character specialized in this way. I feel like the Swiss Army knife of the world and am carrying more gadgets than Batman for any given situation. Why stay with my dedicated set-up when I can just switch out for better abilities suited for this challenge and succeed easily? It's too much of a load-out ala Call of Duty and it works in those games but in these types of games it takes away a lot of thrills. Plus, with how weapon DPS and abilities work, you really can't have interesting and out of ordinary characters. Already in TL2 can you have true Melee Mages where in D3, the Wizard is entirely reliant on Spectral Blades which isn't even a true melee skill. Because there's no reason to ever use the default auto-attack, you don't need to look out for a good caster-related sword that carries a hefty bite with it, but you can easily use a little wand or staff and the result remains the same.

The only real interesting build D3 really had come out was the WW Barbarian and after that, it is possible to make one based on the clunky Weapon Throw/Ancient Spear skills and then it all crumbles because there's little variation past that. A Frenzy Barbarian and a Whirlwind Barbarian in D2 both did melee damage but both played much differently. That's lacking because D3's design is too flawed to allow for such.


These are the main issues I have with D3, as well as the existence of the auction houses. If D3 has the itemization of TL2 and no auction house, it will be significantly better.
#15DragonswkapPosted 10/6/2012 5:26:26 AM
TehAssasin posted...
TheCurseX2 posted...
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9989/infographiclarge.png

This is the primary reason why D3 sucks by comparison to something like D2 and TL2.

They can add in all the Ubers/Infernal Machine events they want and Paragon levels but those are just beating around the inherent flaws the game holds just because of how goddamn boring the entire treasure system is. Taking away stat allocation has indirectly harmed what could've been "fun items" for more mandatory. You basically need to have three certain statistics to roll on any given item and in a high enough number range for it to be of use.

Not to mention the builds in D3 don't feel like builds. I don't feel that level of committing to a build and having one character specialized in this way. I feel like the Swiss Army knife of the world and am carrying more gadgets than Batman for any given situation. Why stay with my dedicated set-up when I can just switch out for better abilities suited for this challenge and succeed easily? It's too much of a load-out ala Call of Duty and it works in those games but in these types of games it takes away a lot of thrills. Plus, with how weapon DPS and abilities work, you really can't have interesting and out of ordinary characters. Already in TL2 can you have true Melee Mages where in D3, the Wizard is entirely reliant on Spectral Blades which isn't even a true melee skill. Because there's no reason to ever use the default auto-attack, you don't need to look out for a good caster-related sword that carries a hefty bite with it, but you can easily use a little wand or staff and the result remains the same.

The only real interesting build D3 really had come out was the WW Barbarian and after that, it is possible to make one based on the clunky Weapon Throw/Ancient Spear skills and then it all crumbles because there's little variation past that. A Frenzy Barbarian and a Whirlwind Barbarian in D2 both did melee damage but both played much differently. That's lacking because D3's design is too flawed to allow for such.


These are the main issues I have with D3, as well as the existence of the auction houses. If D3 has the itemization of TL2 and no auction house, it will be significantly better.


No D3 doesn't need TL2's itemization, it would have gotten boring at level 50.

However, I would like a middle of the road between the two itemizations because D3's is too far on the random side of the spectrum.
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#16ObsidusPosted 10/6/2012 5:30:13 AM
Dragonswkap posted...
TheCurseX2 posted...

The only real interesting build D3 really had come out was the WW Barbarian and after that, it is possible to make one based on the clunky Weapon Throw/Ancient Spear skills and then it all crumbles because there's little variation past that. A Frenzy Barbarian and a Whirlwind Barbarian in D2 both did melee damage but both played much differently. That's lacking because D3's design is too flawed to allow for such.


You hate D3 I get it, but there are more interesting builds than 1 for every character class, not just barbarian. Far more than TL2, oh and you can experiment in D3 without having to level up a whole new character again and again and again, or cheating like TL2. You can get through all of TL2 spamming one skill over and over and over and over again with no skill what so ever. The game gets boring fast. I've put 60 hours into torchlight 2 and am starting to feel like i'm not getting anywhere, I'm level 80 and i haven't' replaced most of my gear in 30 levels why? Because the orange items that drop are worse than items 30 levels before them, or are the same ones over and over again. The loot in TL2 starts out great, but goes south FAST, I feel like there is no hope in finding better items while after 350 HOURS of Diablo 3 I still enjoy experimenting with builds and getting loot and progressing through inferno.


This could not possibly have been more of a knee jerk "I'm a Diablo 3 fanboy and you made me mad", hyperbole laden post. As one small example, in Diablo 3 I beat all 4 difficulties on my Wizard spamming Arcane Missle and Arcane Orb, for over 105 hours; sometimes I'd use Venom Hydra if things got tough. Most of the rest of the abilities were garbage, objectively. Fun, but garbage in terms of efficacy. "Far more than TL2"? Really? In TL2 on my Engineer I regularly use at least 5 different skills at all times.

Many people seriously dislike Diablo 3, it's a fact, get used to it. You really don't need to White Knight it. Especially on the board of a competitor game that you claim to like impartially, but then you make a post like this that screams closet fanboy nerdrage,
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#17ObsidusPosted 10/6/2012 5:49:06 AM(edited)
Diablo 3's itemization is so atrociously boring, its like a tax accountant or a mathematician designed it. Nothing has any vivacity or flavor to it, almost nothing is unique. I remember when I played, all I concerned myself with weapon wise was, how much int? How much IAS? Everything else is irrelevant. Pure number crunching with NOTHING that makes you want to find new loot, outside of the necessity of getting it to progress. In TL2 at around level 30 I found a blue necklace that has a chance to spawn a small fungal orb when I get hit. That orb then follows you around and then explodes in a poison AoE near enemies. Diablo 3 is almost completely devoid of items like that, and the only ones I know of were level 80 legendaries; which coincidentally are the only good legendary items in the game, the rest are pretty but weak for their rarity.

In fact, the three reasons I quit Diablo 3, and have almost no chance of going back to it are:

1.) AH-RMAH, and the fact that 90% of my upgrades in over 105 hours were from the AH, because nothing worthwhile ever dropped for my class. And no, it wasn't RNG being RNG, it is designed that way to encourage AH useage. I want to farm loot from mobs, not farm gold to buy loot from players. Used to be so cool using an aura build to break urns in the crypts with gold find gear for hours on end, just so that I could upgrade my gear, then they nerfed that too.

2.) Horrible, terrible, wretched skill/ability balance. At least on the Wizard, so many of the abilities are objectively bad. The runes are all unimaginative garbage, and the effects on most of the abilities are weak. This all becomes apparent on Inferno, because Normal-Hell are faceroll easy, ridiculously faceroll easy, and then Inferno is extremely cheap and necessitates min/maxing. At this point, most abilities don't cut it. And given Blizzards history when it comes to class balance, I don't see this getting fixed easily, or ever.

3.) Terrible, boring loot. That even if it DID drop more regularly, and the drops WERE for my class, and didn't have dumb crap on it like STR on a WIzard only item (seriously?), it's all so bland the only satisfaction you get from it is watching stat values increase. That's it.

Change these three things and I'd go back to Diablo 3. So far all I see is some wishy-washy patches, and tacking on new stuff on top of the inherent flaws. Even if they add new things that are really cool, it'll still be honey on dung until they rectify 1-3 above. Which 1 they won't, 2 they probably won't pull off, and 3 they also won't until at LEAST an expansion.
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#18DragonswkapPosted 10/6/2012 5:44:19 AM
Obsidus posted...


It needs more than that. Diablo 3's itemization is so atrociously boring, its like a tax accountant or a mathematician designed it. Nothing has any vivacity or flavor to it, almost nothing is unique. I remember when I played, all I concerned myself with weapon wise was, how much int? How much IAS? Everything else is irrelevant. Pure number crunching with NOTHING that makes you want to find new loot, outside of the necessity of getting it to progress. In TL2 at around level 30 I found a blue necklace that has a chance to spawn a small fungal orb when I get hit. That orb then follows you around and then explodes in a poison AoE near enemies. Diablo 3 is almost completely devoid of items like that, and the only ones I know of were level 80 legendaries.


It was in the beginning maybe, but they patched that and it has plenty of interesting legendaries that do fun things. I find only using unique items dull, because now the game is basically telling you what you have to use, you don't really get a choice. You will want That belt, and this ring, and that weapon and this chest piece etc... The blue items are pointless, the green and white items are REALLY pointless, and the set items, since they are mostly blue, are kind of pointless. I found a level 80 pair of boots, it gave +2 mana. and it was a blue item... woo hoo.
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#19ObsidusPosted 10/6/2012 5:51:49 AM
Dragonswkap posted...
Obsidus posted...


It needs more than that. Diablo 3's itemization is so atrociously boring, its like a tax accountant or a mathematician designed it. Nothing has any vivacity or flavor to it, almost nothing is unique. I remember when I played, all I concerned myself with weapon wise was, how much int? How much IAS? Everything else is irrelevant. Pure number crunching with NOTHING that makes you want to find new loot, outside of the necessity of getting it to progress. In TL2 at around level 30 I found a blue necklace that has a chance to spawn a small fungal orb when I get hit. That orb then follows you around and then explodes in a poison AoE near enemies. Diablo 3 is almost completely devoid of items like that, and the only ones I know of were level 80 legendaries.


It was in the beginning maybe, but they patched that and it has plenty of interesting legendaries that do fun things. I find only using unique items dull, because now the game is basically telling you what you have to use, you don't really get a choice. You will want That belt, and this ring, and that weapon and this chest piece etc... The blue items are pointless, the green and white items are REALLY pointless, and the set items, since they are mostly blue, are kind of pointless. I found a level 80 pair of boots, it gave +2 mana. and it was a blue item... woo hoo.


And if these legendary items are anything like the others, you'll get maybe what, 1-2 in over 100 hours worth of gameplay? And then you have to hope its useable by your class. If not, go sell it on the AH and buy an upgrade! Yeah, no thanks. And either you're seriously unlucky, or you're exaggerating seriously. Because blue and set items are not nearly as bad in TL2 as you're trying to act like they are.
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