Elizabeth or Eleanor? *Spoilers*

#1TwilightEchoesPosted 3/28/2013 6:32:11 AM(edited)
Who was the better character? I'm only asking because they're very similar.

For me, Eleanor. Despite being a damsel in distress most of the game, she kicked ass once she was at your side due to her abilities as a Big Sister and all the experience in the ADAM her mind was altered with. She was also very relatable wanting to escape her super-utilitarian parent, wanting to live by her own merits rather than being chained to the service of others. Drawing the closest thing she had to a father to her because she always wanted one. You wander through Rapture, chronicling her childhood struggles, her innocence, her rebelling against her extremist parent, being kidnapped and turned into a Little Sister where she bonded with you, how she grew to hate her mother after being recalimed by her, ect. She wasn't with you, but you got to know her well.

You meet Elizabeth early, but I never really felt connected with her. She's useful in combat, but her supply drops have gotten me killed by them being executed over picking up a health kit I deperately needed (next-gen needs more buttons). She's sheltered, yet feisty, and delivers event commentary and exosition mostly. She also has a case of Stockholm Syndrome with giant bird, but that's barely explored at all. The only time I really felt connected to her was when she was reconciling with her adopted mother, recognizing they were both victims of Comstock and had no reason to hate each other. That was good, geniune character development and sadly I felt that was one of the too only cases of it. Some gameplay-related things also were a little jarring, like her mood sounding usually peppy when she gives you money or unlocks a door right after an upsetting event.

And the ending. They both kill you (Eleanor is a little different). But Eleanor's choice was bittersweet, Elizabeth was just bitter. Eleanor knows you're going to die and does the only thing she can to help you live on, she even gives a heartfelt speech that drives the point home that she really loved you. Elizabeth kills you in an attempt to stop an infinite phenomenon that may be futile, not even bothering to say goodbye or really recognize you as her father. Under certain conditions, Eleanor is shaped by your actions in a few ways and even will accept disagreement with taking your memories into her and allow you to choose total death. Elizabeth is always cold and unflinching in her actions and gives you no such choice and is never affected by what you say or do.

I think Eleanor was more story-interactive, better developed, and better concluded in her arc, in a nutshell. Way more likeable and relatable, too. It's ironic, since Elizabeth is with you most of the time giving her every opportunity to evolve and develop, while Eleanor is only with you for the last section of the game.
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#2adamoldenPosted 3/28/2013 6:43:29 AM
Yes, Eleanor 100% of the way, is a much better character. They tried too hard and failed with Elizabeth, not to mention every way she was portrayed in trailers was changed and padded to lengthen the final game. She develops too quickly, and they use time jumps to explain away everything. The multi-verse elements fall flat in explaining things, and the time jumps don't make it any better. In the end she becomes omnipotent and Booker finding out she's his daughter doesn't even feel important to them. They just rush headlong into killing Comstock, and Booker, and make you feel completely small in the multi-verse scheme of things. Then Elizabeth murders you with an assisted suicide, in which you'll both cease to exist, because that's the only way. Then in the end Booker is back with baby Anna/Elizabeth in some alternate reality possibly where everything is reset to square one because Comstock will never exist and so Elizabeth never exists and Booker never gives her up. In which case, Booker ends up not knowing anything that happened, Elizabeth never comes to exist, Columbia never exists, and by all extent, the entire game never happened.

The ends of Bioshock 1 and 2 have meaning. Bioshock 1 has you save the little sisters who grow old with you as their father and you die happy, or become a nuclear wielding maniac...depending...bioshock 2 ends with you dying, either saving your 'daughter' Eleanor and she is happy and puts you down because your suffering...or she hates you and kills you anyway..and then she lives happily ever after either way.

Eleanor has purpose, Elizabeth is just nothing. In the end, she never existed. I wanted to love her after seeing trailers, and gameplay...in the end, she can stay nonexistent.
#3TwilightEchoes(Topic Creator)Posted 3/28/2013 11:59:43 AM(edited)
adamolden posted...
bioshock 2 ends with you dying, either saving your 'daughter' Eleanor and she is happy and puts you down because your suffering...or she hates you and kills you anyway..and then she lives happily ever after either way.

Eleanor has purpose, Elizabeth is just nothing. In the end, she never existed. I wanted to love her after seeing trailers, and gameplay...in the end, she can stay nonexistent.


Yeah, I really wanted to love Elizabeth too, but she fell so flat I couldn't.

It made me appretiate Eleanor all the more. When I went evil in Bioshock 2, I expected to feel like an ironic bastard at the end and snicker in my dastardly designs, but instead I felt horrible because I changed someone else into a monster. Someone who cared for me and looked to me as a parent and role-model. When you were good she had her heartfelt speech and semi-goodbye, her forgiveness of her mother's crimes against her, and letting go of Rapture with all the Little Sisters... THAT was powerful stuff and something Elizabeth never matched.

God, and when you choose to completely die and she sadly accepts it. Man, the feels... Bioshock 2 wasn't a total success with the story on every front, but damn if it didn't succeed in emotional power at the end.
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#4BTzzPosted 3/28/2013 12:53:11 PM
It should probably tell you something that I played through the entirety of Bioshock 2 and had to look up who Eleanor was.
#5TwilightEchoes(Topic Creator)Posted 3/28/2013 1:06:14 PM(edited)
BTzz posted...
It should probably tell you something that I played through the entirety of Bioshock 2 and had to look up who Eleanor was.


That you didn't like game and didn't care enough for the basic storyline to remember it? Fine. We all have different opinions. I think Bioshock 2 is the most successful character-driven storyline of the series due in no small part to the Lamb family.

So Elizabeth is your answer, I assume.
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#6YermomHoudiniPosted 3/28/2013 8:16:44 PM
I haven't played the game yet, but at times Eleanor's dialog didn't make sense to me. I do like her though.
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#7Alienbob151Posted 3/28/2013 8:24:46 PM
You guys are so entirely wrong that this topic literally hurts me.

Elizabeth is better written and way more integral to Infinite than Eleanor ever was in Bioshock 2.
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#8HonestyPosted 3/28/2013 8:35:47 PM
And let's remember: Bioshock 2 never existed D:
#9sonicdude63Posted 3/28/2013 8:42:30 PM
Odd to see the amount of people choosing Elanor, yes the ending to Bioshock 2 was very sweet but it lacks the depth and complexity that Infinite and Elizabeth have.

And I don't mean to be THAT guy, but Bioshock 2 was made by a different company so it's not really fair to compare the two, though it is a crazy fun game to play
#10TwilightEchoes(Topic Creator)Posted 3/29/2013 6:10:24 AM
Alienbob151 posted...
You guys are so entirely wrong that this topic literally hurts me.

Elizabeth is better written and way more integral to Infinite than Eleanor ever was in Bioshock 2.


I'd like actual, constructive thoughts rather than the berating of others' opinions.

I think Infinite is a poor character-driven story. By all means it should have been better than Bioshock 2, but the structure and pacing were too off. The Founders/Comstock and Vox/Daisy were skin-deep excuses for chaos with no depth. Songbird barely showed up at all and Daisy was a throw-away character that died almost as quickly as you met her. Elizabeth didn't feel effective and much of her character development felt forced and felt more focused as a plot device and exposition-girl than as an actual character.

Eleanor had meaning. She had fleshed-out history beyond "I was locked up in a tower my whole life with a giant bird up to now so I can end the world later. Also my father sold me to himself." She was born to be a test-tube prodigy for a militant philosophy. She was kidnapped to be a living ADAM-manufacturer. She grew to love you even after she was pulled away from her conditioning, wanting a father. She hated her mother for using her like a tool. She's a brilliant, rebellious teenager. She's also the exact same thing as those Big Sisters you've been fighting. She was a reflection of the player-characters actions. The parental themes were far more impactful than Elizabeth, to me.

^^ Bioshock 2 exists. It's not DMC2-bad by any means.
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