So....what's with the lack of general alarm?(2nd Boss Spoilers)

#11bond007106Posted 7/6/2012 3:00:54 PM
Kaitengiri posted...
bond007106 posted...
I think you're looking at it too closely (both figuratively and literally speaking).


I didn't read the rest of your post just for that line. Just saying that automatically invalidates not only what you're about to say just on principal, but the entire point of the topic to begin with.

Good game, see you later.


Eh? How so? Is this some new arbitrary rule of debating that I wasn't informed of?
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#12KaitengiriPosted 7/6/2012 6:10:47 PM
bond007106 posted...
Eh? How so? Is this some new arbitrary rule of debating that I wasn't informed of?


I really have to explain this? Well, alright, I'll humor you.

So you come in and make a topic about the second stage boss monster and how it looks like a woman with a mouth placed below it's torso, and begin to examine in detail how depicting one or the other might point out a personal sexual orientation. Then after how I point out how I believe that it's intent was more evident towards a vagina than an anus, you began to post details about the arms and legs and even asking me to look closer at a picture of the creature in question. Then after I actually look at the monster and point out all the anatomical details and evidence of the monster design, you say:

I think you're looking at it too closely (both figuratively and literally speaking).


The entire point of the topic you made WAS to look closely at this monster and other people who interpreted it. The fact you even suggested that line at all is contradictory to the purpose of the topic. Second, you told me to look closely at the anatomy, and even posted a picture along with your detailed reasoning. So essentially, you're saying that when I do it, it's looking "too closely", but when you do it, magically it becomes evidence? Essentially, you're trying to dismiss everything I wrote on the spot because it doesn't go with what you want it to go with.

Second, the people who made Catherine are professionals in every since of the word. The artists and the story designers in particular. The story designer's job in particular is to make sure every detail of their plot, conversation, and even the background design fits in with the elements and themes he wants going on. In fact, the Shin Megami Tensei series, the team that developed Catherine as well, is known for making their plot and details fit in really well with the mythology of the demons they use, as well as the theme of the overall game. The artists are professional artists. Ask ANY artist, and they'll tell you that one of the more key fundamental basics of drawing any living creature is a working knowledge of biology, anatomy in specific. In fact, this varies between schools, but an art college near where I live will refuse to accept you if you haven't passed a Human Anatomy course.

So you expect me to believe that a company with this many professionals who know how to write complex and entwined stories filled with metaphors, underlying themes, subtlety, good art, etc, is somehow not expecting me to look at the details of this thing? I mean, if you look at the front appendages of the creature, those muscles clearly belong to arm muscle groupings, but instead of hands, you have feet, because the top portion of it's body looks like a pair of buttocks. That attention to detail about anatomy alone is one of the reasons why this game is so great.

And then you say I'm looking at it too closely? Sorry, that just doesn't fly here.

And I'm out.
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But 90% of EVERYTHING is (%*$.
#13Harv(Topic Creator)Posted 7/7/2012 10:30:44 AM
Kaitengiri posted...



The entire point of the topic you made WAS to look closely at this monster and other people who interpreted it.

*Blink Blink*

Yeah, I know I disappeared into thin air after posting this topic, but really? It doesn't exactly lend credence to the argument when you can't even remember who posted the topic in the first place.

I just have a hard time believing you meant "your post" rather than "your topic" considering I need to have dictionary.com open in order to understand the biological terms your using to describe the creature. Not saying having a grasp on biological terms is a bad thing. :p

In any event, you did bring forward points to the contrary therefore, I'll put forth reasons as to why I think it's a buttocks.

- After analyzing the monster again from the picture above, it seems to me like it's arms and legs are inverted. As in if I were doing a back bridge for example, which means it's back is on the bottom, and it's belly is on top where it's "face" is. Which means the "hole" in question would be the lowest one on the body in that position.

- The lack of "lips" or a "hood" or whatever term you'd like to use is what I find the most jarring. Granted neither holes typically have a tongue or teeth, however it being a dream monster is what's causing the controversy in the first place. Only having one hole visible doesn't help.

- If it isn't a "butt" after all, what was Catherine yammering on about never doing something like "that" before? If anal sex isn't what she's referring to, then what could it be? The only other thing I could think of is a "back bridge" position, where Vincent would be pounding away with Catherine's hands on the ground. A reverse wheelbarrow I guess it could be called. That would explain a distorted face, as you couldn't really see her face in that position. Plus it is something "kinky" that a women may have not tried before. I feel that anal sex is a more logical conclusion to reach however.

I'm going to get spoilery about the game in this next point, so skip it if you haven't played the whole game.

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- Being the "immoral beast" leaves it up to interpretation as well. Cheating is most certainly immoral in and of itself, at least I'm inclined to believe Vincent finds it immoral. However people could find anal sex immoral as well. This next bit is all hearsay, but I feel like getting it off my chest. It's made clear in game that Catherine is based off of a "dream girl" of Vincent's, and how the bosses are a representation of what's going on in his life, as well as the others. Therefore I wonder if Vincent had desired anal sex from Katherine, but she wouldn't do it, due to the "immorality" of it. Henceforth for the demon to convince Vincent that this "dream girl" is truly a dream girl, it would play to his deepest desires, which in this case may mean anal sex. Again, nothing in this game really supports this, it's just a hypothesis I have.



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That's about all I have for now. If anyone ends up having any comments directed towards me I'll hash out some more ideas I have.
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"Don't make a fool out of me, that's my job."-Me
#14mastercheeze313Posted 7/7/2012 2:23:48 PM
I thought Catherine was referring to anal sex as well, but I didn't post it thinking it was too "out-there" speculation wise. Think about it, Catherine has obviously slept with a lot of men, and vaginal sex isn't something that only couples do. She most-likely isn't a virgin, so that couldn't be what she's referring to. However, anal sex is something that most women are unsure of, yet most guys would like to try it. Like the TC said, Vincent might've wanted to try anal on Katherine, but she wouldn't do it. If Vincent had done anal on another woman, the guilt he faced for going to another woman to get what he desired would manifest itself into the object of guilt during the nightmares. In this case, the Immoral Beast would be Vincent's guilt for giving another woman anal sex combined with Catherine's lustful nature.
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#15KaitengiriPosted 7/7/2012 2:50:14 PM
Harv posted...
Yeah, I know I disappeared into thin air after posting this topic, but really? It doesn't exactly lend credence to the argument when you can't even remember who posted the topic in the first place.

I just have a hard time believing you meant "your post" rather than "your topic" considering I need to have dictionary.com open in order to understand the biological terms your using to describe the creature. Not saying having a grasp on biological terms is a bad thing. :p


Yup, that's what I get for posting well past my bedtime. Apologies for that mistake.

- After analyzing the monster again from the picture above, it seems to me like it's arms and legs are inverted. As in if I were doing a back bridge for example, which means it's back is on the bottom, and it's belly is on top where it's "face" is. Which means the "hole" in question would be the lowest one on the body in that position.


The arms and legs are inverted, but the muscles of the body are also backwards. The "leg" muscles happen to have muscle build from the arms, and the "arms" of the body are legs. It's really hard to determine the position from simply the position of the ligaments. Which is why when I was pointing out details, I stuck mainly to the actual trunk of the body and ignored the arms and legs. So, again, pointing out the small of the back from the above post. . .

- The lack of "lips" or a "hood" or whatever term you'd like to use is what I find the most jarring. Granted neither holes typically have a tongue or teeth, however it being a dream monster is what's causing the controversy in the first place. Only having one hole visible doesn't help.


Even though the game is M-rated, and the Persona team has had phallic monsters in it before, I don't think they could get away with making the lips or hood, no matter HOW good the censorship.

- If it isn't a "butt" after all, what was Catherine yammering on about never doing something like "that" before? If anal sex isn't what she's referring to, then what could it be? The only other thing I could think of is a "back bridge" position, where Vincent would be pounding away with Catherine's hands on the ground. A reverse wheelbarrow I guess it could be called. That would explain a distorted face, as you couldn't really see her face in that position. Plus it is something "kinky" that a women may have not tried before. I feel that anal sex is a more logical conclusion to reach however.


While I could try and say that "kinky" could possibly refer to almost ANYTHING, and there are plenty of fetishes people would be surprised to even try (like Clown Fetish), I won't deny that they were probably hinting at anal. However, combined with that, and what you said in the spoiler, I think the intent of the monster is more towards a sexualized female form in general than anything aimed specifically at anal sex. If you watch someone complete the stage, you'll notice that the monster, as a form of attack, spews out heart shaped rain to attack and confuse you with. If you think about it, she's essentially spewing "love juices" at you. Along with the tongue, the eyes, the curves of the body, I believe that the intent of the immoral beast was sex in general, and the sexual nature of the female form, over a specific act that is kinda considered immoral by old testament days. So I believe because of this, the attack, and the position of the trunk of the body and anatomy, It's just supposed to be demonized sex.
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But 90% of EVERYTHING is (%*$.