Look at this intense Nelo fight.

#31_Uwye_Posted 5/5/2012 5:33:35 AM(edited)
Strelok posted...
Fallout 3 wasn't even as bad as everyone seems to scream (In fact if anything I'd say Vegas was a lot worse, buggier by far at any rate and somehow... lacked something. I can't put my finger on it but I grew extremely bored with it once I hit level 15 or so).

In terms of design FO3 was an atrocity, by itself and compared to the previosu games. Still
enjoyable but really horrible deisgn.
NV was a bit buggier* but in terms of design blows the Beth entry out of the water.

And of course I was referring to Beth post Morrowind. During the development of TES3 the company went through a big internal change, and it shows.



*Then again Obsidian was given a POS engine that they had never used before and were tasked with making a huge game in 18 months. By comparison the flaws of FO3 and TES5 are completely unexcusable given the scope, complexity and development time.
#32StrelokPosted 5/5/2012 5:39:33 AM
I have to say one thing about Obsidian.

They make games with great stories.
However, their games are never finished. I have yet to play an Obsidian game that was actually finished, not buggy beyond belief on a bad engine.
It doesn't help either that it seems that every first 4-5 hours in an Obsidian game are mindnumbingly *DULL*.
KOTOR 2 didn't kick off until you FINALLY AFTER THREE PLANETS got a lightsaber.
NWN 2 was.... really dull throughout really, until you finally got to Neverwinter. Which took for freaking ever.
New Vegas: The same. Extremely boring tutorial and until you FINALLY got to New Vegas it just felt... boring. Dull. Lifeless. And seriously, what is up with the rape goddamn everywhere? Seriously, once, ok. It'll be "That quest with a rapist to kill" but... good lords how many people got raped in that one? I can count at least 3 and I never completed it.


My biggest issue with Bethesda however, is their attitude of "We'll release the game, modders will patch it for us".
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Goodbye Bubbles, dearest of pets. I'll miss you, always. 2nd June 2004 - 22nd August 2009
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l493/TTripweed/Haiguyz.jpg
#33_Uwye_Posted 5/5/2012 5:54:43 AM
Strelok posted...
And seriously, what is up with the rape goddamn everywhere? Seriously, once, ok. It'll be "That quest with a rapist to kill" but... good lords how many people got raped in that one? I can count at least 3 and I never completed it.

Rape...rape...I can think only of two instances and both had to do with the same person (Cook Cook). Considering the kind of setting it's not even that much, frankly.

But yeah, I can see that the beginning is a bit slow and dull, but as a whole, as a Role Playing game NV is excellent.

My biggest issue with Bethesda however, is their attitude of "We'll release the game, modders will patch it for us".

For me it's that and "don't bother with decent, balanced design because apparently our target audience doesn't care". Just look at their usage of scaled loot/enemies, for example.

"Bugs can be fixed but sh!tty design is forever".
#34StrelokPosted 5/5/2012 6:02:26 AM
I kind of disagree, roleplaying wise definitely. To me it felt closer to a Fallout 3 mod than a legitimate new game (Sadly, much like KOTOR 2).
Using the same engine (and the limitations) are likely a big factor though.

I DO admit that NV had some really awesome vaults. The NV vaults were downright awesome.
And on the rape thing: None of the previous games really featured it. It felt really tacked on just for "Look, you can kill a rapist". As a storyteller myself it should be used in extreme situations, not merely as shock value or show "Look! This guy is evil!". Let's not forget that it always seems to be happening to women (Statistics say that males are actually the biggest victims, but enough politically correct bull).
In short, the game didn't lose a thing if it was left out and simply made Cook Cook a cannibal.

And to be fair, scaled loot/enemies were significantly reduced in FO3 (At least when compared to Oblivion. Good gods, MUDCRABBATTLE!). Heard that it was even further downtoned in Skyrim, but again, didn't play it.

Don't get me wrong, I like Obsidian. However, due to circumstances beyond their control I can't like their games as much as I'd personally like. Especially KOTOR 2, which had so much potential and in the end, was an unfinished mess without a proper ending.
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Goodbye Bubbles, dearest of pets. I'll miss you, always. 2nd June 2004 - 22nd August 2009
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l493/TTripweed/Haiguyz.jpg
#35_Uwye_Posted 5/5/2012 6:33:31 AM
Strelok posted...
I kind of disagree, roleplaying wise definitely.

I don't know. Intertwined quests, faction system, game designed to allow around 2/3 of content for any character template, possibility to play from start to finish without entering combat once, possibility of double/triple crossing organizations... The SPECIAL was still a bit simplfiied (damn you, consolization) but overall it offered more role-playing options than the previous games.

And I don't understand the complaint about NV being some kind of mod of FO3. Nevermind that structurally is actually kind of different when you come down to it (FO3 is more of a dungeon crawler with a few FO-esque quests) but even if it was, so what? FO2 improved a lot the role-playing gameplay of the first and I don't remeber anyone complaining that, at the end of the day, it was an "expansion pack sequel".

And really, how many sequels fall in that category nowadays?

And regarding rape...
-There's potential rape in Modoc in FO2.
-There's potential rape in Broken Hills in FO2.
-There's implied attempted rape in Megaton in FO3.
#36ABadNuffDudePosted 5/5/2012 6:49:33 AM(edited)
Strelok posted...
In short, the game didn't lose a thing if it was left out and simply made Cook Cook a cannibal

Hmm... so you think a guy who eats people is more acceptable than a guy who forces himself on them?
I seriously dunno if I agree with this or not...

I mean right now they seem equally as horrible but you know lifelong psychological scars vs death at the hands of a pyromaniac who'd probably cook you alive...
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Official Daigo Umehara of Hentai games.
#37StrelokPosted 5/5/2012 7:35:20 AM
I don't know. Intertwined quests, faction system, game designed to allow around 2/3 of content for any character template, possibility to play from start to finish without entering combat once, possibility of double/triple crossing organizations... The SPECIAL was still a bit simplfiied (damn you, consolization) but overall it offered more role-playing options than the previous games.

Agreed with most of it, but you HAD to fight the mutated animals in NV. Especially those damned Cazadors. And the Deathclaw. And likely a lot of bandits who pulls guns the moment they see you.

And I don't understand the complaint about NV being some kind of mod of FO3. Nevermind that structurally is actually kind of different when you come down to it (FO3 is more of a dungeon crawler with a few FO-esque quests) but even if it was, so what? FO2 improved a lot the role-playing gameplay of the first and I don't remeber anyone complaining that, at the end of the day, it was an "expansion pack sequel".

I think that it's due to Obsidians style with boring introduction levels that seem excessively lifeless, a lot like a lot of mods.

-There's potential rape in Modoc in FO2.
-There's potential rape in Broken Hills in FO2.


I don't quite recall these two actually. It's been a while but if the player can do these it is to be expected, I rarely play evil and even if I'm evil I don't go that route.

-There's implied attempted rape in Megaton in FO3.
I had forgotten about Jericho, yes. My bad, thanks for correcting me and reminding me why I loathe that rNPC again.

Hmm... so you think a guy who eats people is more acceptable than a guy who forces himself on them?
I seriously dunno if I agree with this or not...

I mean right now they seem equally as horrible but you know lifelong psychological scars vs death at the hands of a pyromaniac who'd probably cook you alive...


I'm serious. Maybe it's being a (nonsexual) rape victim that makes me disgusted by it.
And there is a GREAT semi-stealth pun being lost on making the guy called Cook Cook who uses fire NOT a cannibal!
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Goodbye Bubbles, dearest of pets. I'll miss you, always. 2nd June 2004 - 22nd August 2009
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l493/TTripweed/Haiguyz.jpg
#38ABadNuffDudePosted 5/5/2012 8:20:09 AM(edited)
Strelok posted...

I'm serious. Maybe it's being a (nonsexual) rape victim that makes me disgusted by it.
And there is a GREAT semi-stealth pun being lost on making the guy called Cook Cook who uses fire NOT a cannibal!


Well I don't talk about this much but I grew up in pretty much for lack of a better term a brothel (more like a bunch of women who lived together and used themselves and their kids for profit) so in a "kid trying to gain the approval of his mother and latch onto any kinda of emotional/physical attachment he can" way I'm also a rape victim though I hadn't ever thought of it that way till now.

I think that's kinda what makes me think this way. You know atleast I'm still alive but if you replace pedos with cannibals then the whole situation becomes ALOT worse.

Though I see where you're coming from with this since I do tend to have a zero tolerance hatred for anything even slightly pedophilic (like despite my hentai/porn loving ways I HATE lolicon/teen "ageplay" porn with a fury).
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Official Daigo Umehara of Hentai games.
#39StrelokPosted 5/5/2012 8:23:54 AM
I can stand a pedophile. It's in their genes and they can't do much about it. Tragic and misunderstanding for their situation (Much like homosexuals were in the past, only unlike kids another person can give consent)
Those that *ACT* on it though... yeah, no sympathy from me. I know that if I were in the same situation I'd rather opt for chemically castration than to walk around forever being a "ticking bomb".

As for my (nonsexual) rape... let's say it involves being bullied and about half a class worth of bullies thinking it's fun to shove (real) human bones down my throat during Biology class.
So yes, there is a reason why I never told anyone in person, not even my parents who were aware of the bullying but couldn't do much about it (Neither could the school. We all know how bullies act, you "tell on them" and they'll get back at you even harsher. Ironically enough, in the end they stopped because I entered some sort of berserker rage when they finally reached the straw that broke the camels back. I really hope never to enter such a state again as I recall absolutely nothing, just a red mist, seething rage and when the mist cleared I only recall one guy bleeding heavily and another terrified and paralyzed with shock. According to a friend I even foamed at the mouth, they thought I was rabid and apparently I bit the bleeding guy in the arm and face before using my fists. The bullying stopped though, so it was good for SOMETHING)
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Goodbye Bubbles, dearest of pets. I'll miss you, always. 2nd June 2004 - 22nd August 2009
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l493/TTripweed/Haiguyz.jpg
#40_Uwye_Posted 5/5/2012 9:14:44 AM
Strelok posted...
Agreed with most of it, but you HAD to fight the mutated animals in NV. Especially those damned Cazadors. And the Deathclaw. And likely a lot of bandits who pulls guns the moment they see you.

Weeell, not exactly. If you don't go in combat zones (why should you if you are role-playing a non-violent character?), pick Animal Friend, stay on the road, raise Sneak and Perception and keep with you a couple of faction outfits you can avoid enemies while travelling between settlements almost completely. Rarely you'll have to run away, but the same happened in FO1-2.

I don't quite recall these two actually. It's been a while but if the player can do these it is to be expected, I rarely play evil and even if I'm evil I don't go that route.

-If you try to jump on the "slut" of the village without a decent Charisma she'll cry for help.
-If you lose at armwrestling with a Super Mutant you'll be his plaything for the night.

But we are deralining the discussion, I think. :P My original point was that Oblivion, Fallout 3 and (as far as I've heard) Skyrim are dumbed down compared to the first entries of the respective series and they sold like crazy because of it. If I had an Euro for every time I heard the phrase "I don't like RPGs but I love Oblivion" I'd be rich.