DmC vs GOW (Combat)

#61Psychochild27Posted 11/29/2012 12:02:47 PM
mmSNAKE posted...
GoW combat was way too simple. There was hardly any room for any finesse or any really skillful exhibits. Closest you got to were the non upgrade runs and even then it wasn't that good.

I'm not gonna make a call on this yet but I feel that this game will be at least more complex in fights than GoW.

GoW's good point wasn't the battle system. It was the over the top violence and brutality. There was always something about ripping off limbs off things and beating them to death with it.


God of War 3 actually had some neat things you could do with combat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BoHu8FTyxk

I'd leave more, but I've got to run a few errands. Tagging thread for later.
#62mmSNAKEPosted 11/29/2012 12:13:06 PM(edited)
When stuff like that was first coming out and people were showing off their creativity I sat down and gave it a try. There are few switches and transitions that I stammered but for the most part once I memorized a sequence it wasn't all that hard to execute.

Perhaps I worded my original post wrong. To me there wasn't as much incentive to with GoW as there was with DMC. It was much easier to combo in GoW.

In DMC3 and 4 getting some proper just frame inputs in was a *****. I had to sit down for hours to learn 2-3 sequences and even then there were things I could not perform consistently.
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Beatings will continue until morale improves!
#63MrStarkillerPosted 11/29/2012 12:18:22 PM
Yuka: >cheap
All the better, yes?

MM: >done NUR and NUR+
Oh? For which entries? Do tell. I presume VH (or you wouldn't even mention it). I'm always game for some evaluations. Clearing VH NUR/NUR+ is a fine start. We'll get you signed up for higher level runs before long.

This said, the noted extreme case was NUR (or higher) on H (or higher) against the Clones specifically. Or did you overlook this detail? Surely you're not unaware of this infamous scenario. It has given pause to many.

A lesser case being NBR+ NUR+ (or PAIN+) Persephone S2. Lesser still being Tranny in PAIN+ or GKPAIN+ Zeus w/ BH. But really, Clones are the top. Far beyond the norm for GoW.

>DMC will beat everything
>everything
Absolutes are absolutely tricky business, friend. Mind this well.

>square square dodge
That's bad and you should feel bad. All those infinities, ring-outs, etc. and you want to waste everyone's time with chip damage? Disgusting.

>no
You forgot the comma.

>knowledge
Mostly so.

>still going on about combos
Bleh. It's time for combat discussion, my boy.

>timing
You'll need more than that when the Clones come marching in.

Stinker: >highly entertaining
That goes without saying.

>didn't notice much gap
Because there isn't one. GoW1 simply strips you of 25% Power and drops your Armor to 40% while only slightly increasing enemy aggression/recovery. GoWII and beyond have settings affect your other stats (but not Power on Hard) and it still changes little.

The biggest gap is E to N (200% on all stats, 25% slower rage drain, 25% cheaper spells, etc. for the former with fairly passive foes). The other change is between H and VH with increased aggression and sharp stat decline (because that is all it really takes).

Having an alternate foe layout, changing mechanics, more moves for foes, new foes, etc. would be lovely, but they're extremely lazy about it (only the combat guys even test it which is why the infamous clones are they way they are *besides vidya being terrible about protection/escort missions*).

>felt like
You didn't manage VH. That's all there is to say, friend. But it is not too late to undo the deeds of the past. Redeem yourself. I can help.

>credit Gears for boss fights
I don't remember them being all that, but I don't tend to play many shooters. I liked Vanquish better.

>don't try to be about combos
This is true. Efficient play with strategy is the proper path. Too many casuals get caught up with the notion of combos.

>pretty terrible
Certainly simple. Gem did what he could. Magnetro should have consulted the vets (we would have taught him cycle canceling to increase his options exponentially). Just the same, one works with what one has. Brea and n472a did what they could in the demo, but even they just made for a boring display in DmC. Can't be helped, yes?

>sorry
*glove slap*
Never apologize.

Psycho: >link
>tagged for later
Didn't have time to look things over, I see.
#64mmSNAKEPosted 11/29/2012 12:31:41 PM
Absolutes are absolutely tricky business, friend. Mind this well.

Sure, but didn't you claim an absolute as well for this genre?

As for what I did. I did NUR+ for VH on 2. I didn't do it for 3. The reason was because I didn't feel playing with giving myself a ton of other restrictions. If I had to keep thinking up stuff to make game super hard I might as well try make a game myself. With DMC all I really had to focus on was getting the SS or SB and I still got a great kick out of it.

You also completely ignored what I said about God Hand and DMC3 challenges. You didn't address why those would be less difficult than your NUR runs. So here, take a chance to explain why those runs are more difficult than what I put up. Mind you the god hand one only has 2 restrictions on it (fresh start and KMS, you can go to hell and beyond limiting yourself even more restricting which moves you can and cannot use). There, if you can explain it to me so I can understand it without just saying "it is because it is". I'll admit I was wrong and we can go about our merry way.

(the explanation should be considerable in length because I doubt you can explain any of that in a sentence or two)

That's bad and you should feel bad. All those infinities, ring-outs, etc. and you want to waste everyone's time with chip damage? Disgusting.

The point was that it was safe and easy as hell to do. There really isn't anything as safe and simple in DMC for that equivalent. That was the point of that remark.
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Beatings will continue until morale improves!
#65MrStarkillerPosted 11/29/2012 1:19:30 PM
>didn't you
Perhaps.

>GoWII VH NUR+
So what's the rest of your run history then? Just GoW1 and GoWIII on VH vanilla?

>ton of other restrictions
NUR+ is simple. Just don't use EXP or extend your bars. It's PAIN/PAIN+ that create a list of things to mind. GoW1 is fairly simple for having made it such that you already lose many things for not upgrading in the first place. A fine starting place. I'd suggest it. You can make for the Clones straight away upon clearing Ares1.

NOTE: It's not like you know how to make good use of Artemis, so sticking to the BoC should suit you fine, yes?

>completely ignored
Speaking of which, you didn't say which title you wanted to start your evaluations with. GoW1 seems like a good place, but you say you're familiar with GoWII. Doing another VH NUR+ shouldn't be asking much. I've got a run skeleton as it happens.

>why they would be
Do keep up. I even went over it again. Just the Clones make for such a drastic spike. It's as if you really aren't familiar with them enough to realize why they would get held to such a high standard (to even compare against the likes of God Hand's worst moments).

The bulk of mere NUR/NUR+ runs will have their moments, but nothing on the level we're talking. Just those Clones. Tranny in NUR+ is a joke. Same to the ER. But then, I've had a lot of time with them.

>only two restrictions
And with a VH NUR you have one restriction. Don't use upgrades. You can have the rest. The Clones are already primed to show you what they can do as such. Lower it to 'glorified Normal' (Hard) if you like. How's that?

>admit you were wrong
Dear boy, I'm not interested in such things. Class is in. It's time to show you the ropes. If you, for some reason, don't know GoW1 well enough to understand without having it spelled out, it's better that you experience it for lack of familiarity. It's a simple process, really. I provide the run skeleton, you fill it with progress (tactical coverage, questions, comments, etc.).

>go about our merry way
What makes you think that would satisfy me? Regarding my business, we've hardly begun. If you've merely had a taste of GoWII, then we've got a lot of work to do indeed.

>considerable in length
I'll not spoil the moment.

NOTE: You did play GoW1, did you not? Because you really should already know what you're in for if you lose the necessary upgrades to make the normal VH tactic work. You did clear vanilla VH for that one, I'm sure.

>the point was
To waste my time. Clearly.

>hell
>h
Proper nouns and all that business.

>anything as safe and simple
You sure you don't want to rephrase that?
#66Psychochild27Posted 11/29/2012 1:43:56 PM
MrStarkiller posted...
Psycho: >link
>tagged for later
Didn't have time to look things over, I see.


No, I didn't have time to go digging forty posts into a thread.
#67mmSNAKEPosted 11/29/2012 2:14:14 PM(edited)
You haven't even begun to explain anything. You keep dancing around it. I asked you nicely and all you seem to do is vaguely hint and try to seem smug. If you can't explain WHY it's harder, then we have nothing to discuss and you can assume whatever you want.

I played ALL GoW games and every difficulty, I only did NUR on 2. That's besides the point. The biggest thing I'm trying to say is that vanilla GoW (any game) vs Vanilla DMC3 or God Hand on any difficulty. GoW falls short. You can have all sorts of nonsense runs and restrictions, if base of one is harder, that one will win as long as you have stuff to restrict. There is plenty to restrict in either of those.

Again instead of actually giving me valid points why, you just give off smug remarks like I'm ignorant without any proper arguments.

Also which are the worst parts of God Hand? Give specifics. For both cases.
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Beatings will continue until morale improves!
#68MrStarkillerPosted 11/29/2012 3:47:56 PM
Psycho: >no
Too bad for you.

MM: >haven't begun
You still delaying us? You should be firing up the game and heading to the appropriate board. Those run skeletons don't fill themselves.

>try
I never "try" anything. I just do it. Want to "try" me?

>we have nothing to discuss
Nonsense. It's time to teach you how to play GoW properly. Your early evaluation leaves much room for growth. Let's continue that process while getting to the teaching bit.

>all GoW games
>on every difficulty
Neat.

>only did NUR
You said NUR+. Which is it, boy? Do you even know the difference?

>besides the point
Nay, that is the point. You've much to learn. If you've tasted VH in GoW1, you shouldn't even have to ask why NUR or higher on H/VH would be an issue with the fight in question (and yet, here we are).

>trying to say is
I'm not interested in what you're trying to say, only in what you need to do. And that is learn the system well. I can teach you. It's one of the many things I attend to in that community. Clearly there are things you do not understand about the combat based on what you've said thus far. It is best we clear all that up. A great way to do it is run coverage (preferably with a challenge run).

>will win as long as
*glove slap*
You should know better. Sometimes design is very clearly geared (and balanced) in favor of not being restricted. When it is, you are met with unintended spikes as with the noted case of H/VH NUR Clones. This is all clearly spelled out.

Being that you cannot, for some reason, understand with your current level of experience, it is best you just man up and gain the first hand knowledge that will put it into perspective for you. What's the harm?

A mere VH NUR through GoW1 shouldn't take long. You'll be done with Ares1 in no time, yes? The more you delay, the worse things look. We should get to it without further delay. Shall I make you a thread? Which version do you have anyway? GoW1 (PS2), Saga or GoW1 (PS3) *Collection*? Always good to be clear on these things.

>smug
You sure like this word, champ.

>you're ignorant
I'm not here to judge such things. Only evaluate and correct them through our work together. I'm here to help.

>for both cases
>notes one
What?

>worst parts
You didn't specify conditions. At all. What can be a problem when you can use a huge selection of game breaking antics?

NOTE: So we've settled on GoW1, yes? It seems like that's the one you wish to work with. Will that be NUR or NUR+? I'd suggest PAIN if you're trying to make a point, but who wants to be overly cruel?
#69SBK91Posted 11/29/2012 3:53:54 PM
fresh KMS on hard.

Difficult, but assuming you don't get held up on Gold and Silver it has nothing that competes with the Clones or PAIN+ Tranny.

Also, Fresh Hard KMS Starting Moveset No Upgrades is far worse. Probably above the Clones, but that's nothing to be ashamed of.

Fresh DMD (DMC3) run with nothing but E&I+Rebellion etc.

With upgrades, all too easy. Royalguard breaks the game, and Dante's mobile enough to dodge everything.

I've done NUR and NUR+ runs.

Try PAIN+. Skorpius beckons you.

But still that is absurd level of difficulty.

Meh, you get through Stage 1 and it's cruising to the Stooges. Beat them and it's a straight shot to 8-1 (with Drunken Twist). The rest isn't bad, and significantly easier the second time through (especially once you know what you're doing).

Just finishing GoW games on hardest difficulty is miles easier than finishing either God Hand on hard, or DMC3 on DMD.

I would agree, but the difference isn't astronomical. Both DMC3 and God Hand can be utterly broken so long as you know what you're doing, and I doubt either has a vanilla fight as poorly thought out as Skorpius.

Try pulling off a SS DMD run in DMC3 with no upgrades, using one style and no other weapons besides E&I.

One style? RG can let you clear most things without significant issue. Geryon, Lady, Fallen, etc might cause problems.

That said, such conditions are rather borderline. One could just as easily say the Clones/Translator are unbeatable with regular square hits from the Blades. Skorpius definitely is.

Also, I think DMC is just the harder game to clear the first time around.

DMC1? Certainly. Not so much the others.

To me there wasn't as much incentive to with GoW as there was with DMC.

That's because the focus of GoW is efficient play, not combos.

You'll need more than that when the Clones come marching in.

God damn double spawns...

With DMC all I really had to focus on was getting the SS or SB and I still got a great kick out of it.

This isn't too different than playing without upgrades.

You didn't address why those would be less difficult than your NUR runs.

The Clones were specifically balanced with the player having completely upgraded magic, Poseidon's Rage, Army of Hades, and Blades of Chaos *Rage of the Gods*. All but the former are broken. Not having them makes the fight Hell (to the point it took the best player several months of trying to clear it several years after the game came out).

The rest of the NUR runs aren't much to talk about, but old Skorp remains entertaining as ever. PAIN+ is where the real fun begins.

you can go to hell and beyond limiting yourself even more restricting which moves you can and cannot use

As can be done in any game.
#70SBK91Posted 11/29/2012 3:54:34 PM
There, if you can explain it to me so I can understand it without just saying "it is because it is".

God Hand Fresh Hard KMS
-Most fights allow you to pick off enemies one by one.
-The vast majority of regular enemies can be beaten individually with Jab>Straight>Guard Break with no real chance to retaliate.
-HSK lock, when applicable, breaks the game.
-Hand Plant Kick invalidates non-Elite regular foes.
-Most enemies that lack a ranged move can be knocked away with a critical High Side Kick reasonably easily.
-Drunken Twist beats every normal fight effortlessly but 8-1.

DMC3 New Game DMD Reb, E&I, and one Style
-Royalguard destroys most things regardless of weapon set up, and is easy to use with air parries.
-Dante is extremely mobile; he has few commital attacks and can jump his way past anything.
-Rebellion's Combo I has appreciable DPS (most of any regular combo string IIRC).
-Can stay offscreen and pick away with E&I.
-DTE's spiffy. Taunts and RG builds it fast.

GoW1 Clones VH NUR
-Kratos is extremely lacking in mobility.
-The family has low health, is in a terrible position (middle), and can't defend itself. The Clones can kill them in seconds.
-The only way to heal them is by giving them your own health, which is long enough for the Clones to get up.
-The only way to get through is to keep them locked down while depleting spawn pools. Letting several recover at once is extremely dangerous, if not fatal.
-Kratos has bad crowd control (mostly limited to Plume, Spirit *too slow*, Ascension *slight delay, and tends to miss*, and Valor *can kill several at once, but is slow as Spirit and extremely dangerous due to respawns*).
-Using PR or AoH will likely trigger new spawns, costing you control of the fight.
-The Clones have super armor so long as they're standing up.
-They have very high HP relative to your attacks; the only efficient ways of disposing of them are grabs *can let the others recover*, ringouts, and collisions (Valor's about the only way).
-Killing the wrong clone at the wrong time basically costs you the fight.
-There's a clone out of your reach that picks away with ranged attacks, interrupting you, picking away out your health, and in general being an unnecessary annoyance.
-The Clones become more dangerous as you deplete spawn pools.
-There's 96 clones in total. It's a 10+ minute fight done properly.

There really isn't anything as safe and simple in DMC for that equivalent.

DMC1 has the Grenade Gun and DT specific attacks. Most enemies die in seconds. DMC4 has distorted attacks (Real Impact being joke easy to use), Lucifer, Nero's charge shot and Buster.

For DMC3:
-DTE
-Air Royalguard
-Gunslinger (in general)
-High powered jump cancel attacks (Killer Bee, Aerial Cross, Hammer, Starfall)
-Guard cancelled Spiral and KA
-Certain Style granted Crazy Combos (Real Impact, Ultimate Tempest, Point Blank, and in some cases Acid Rain)

You can have all sorts of nonsense runs and restrictions, if base of one is harder, that one will win as long as you have stuff to restrict.

Poor design can make a Hell of a difference, and the Clone fight has that in Spades.

There is plenty to restrict in either of those.

DMC3's restrictions don't change the game as much as GoW's do in certain fights (mostly due to the Blades being piss poor on their own without upgrades). One can try to do fights damagelessly and quickly in GoW to make up for the lack of a ranking system (if you wish).

Also which are the worst parts of God Hand?

-Gold and Silver
-The Jewel Room
-Three Stooges 2
-Whip It!
-7-2
-8-1

The rest is pretty simple.