DmC vs GOW (Combat)

#71MrStarkillerPosted 11/29/2012 4:18:43 PM
>or PAIN+ Tranny
Really? What of Persephone S2 in PAIN+?

>far worse
Yeah, probably. The restrictions become too much for the Clones (who only really factor thanks to NUR *one huge spike but then the rest of the stuff we pile on doesn't mean much in this case*).

>nothing to be ashamed of
Rather, proud. It's a big leap between second and first (Clones). The Clones put GoW on the map (very clearly) with the others without needing too extreme of conditions (H NUR suffices for an example of the spike, but VH PAIN is the version one should be after).

>dodge everything
'Tricking' helps too. I forget, they have the same rules as Bayonetta with regards to off-screen AI behavior?

>Monster Truck Jackson beckons
Skorpius, pls. Stahp. *whiff grabs all day, erry day*

>try PAIN+
Might as well go for the gusto. Apollo PAIN+ w/ Chalice. Granted, you cannot be blamed if you cannot get Apollo. Such a lame age we contend with...the age of DLC.

>poor design
There are other cases. The Clones themselves (obviously). Tranny has some shades of this. Geryon and Keres Wraiths for that matter. But with upgrades...well, you know.

>efficient play
You bet. And that plays to my tastes just fine. Though I do have love for what Bayonetta did to marry DMC and GoW.

>unbeatable
Yeah, maybe so.

>double spawns
Make it a doozy. Try your luck speeding things along. Use Valor (s6) to sweep the board clean. See how that goes (like Taz, Shin, Franchise, etc.).

>explain it
Spoon-feeding today, are we? You're much too kind. A lovely breakdown.

>has that in spades
Something I like to remind the devs about. Too bad they don't learn their lessons. I'm not saying they shouldn't try again. Just to mind the errors of the past. They give up too easily (as with the general platforming after GoW1 and climbing since GoW:A).

The fight is, as noted, clearly designed and balanced for Normal with MAX BoC and PR/AoH spam (with RotG allowing infinite MP). This is made more effective with extended bars and upgrades to the noted spells. The battle plan hinges on this.

The alternatives are not pretty unless you have an insane amount of damage (Easy with God Armor and MAX BoC), can glitch move (or even hide) the family or enjoy insane Armor and recovery such that you can take hits in stride.

Power won't matter even if it were 0% when you can still grab or ring-out (you'll have pathetic collision damage as such, but the trade works in your favor).

>if you wish
Shinobier certainly had a hard-on for 'no damage' in whatever he played. Others have a need for speed.

>Gold/Silver
>Stooges
>8-1
Those would have been all that came to mind for me. I don't know the rest well enough to comment.
#72Arc166Posted 11/29/2012 4:27:12 PM
Why are you comparing restricted combat anyways? It's God of War V DmC, not Gimp of War V The entire Devil May Cry series.

...this topic got weird.
#73MrStarkillerPosted 11/29/2012 4:34:44 PM
>why
Didn't follow along closely, Arc?

>vs DmC
Let's not pretend it matters. It deserves no such attention. SWFU1 is far better than it will be. Likely to have much more challenge to. Speaking of which, NFR+ NUR+ Paratus. Something of a puzzle. Fighting straight up is a fool's errand. When you know the way, it's not so bad. Until then...well SBK can tell you all about that as I once told him.

>Gimp of War
I still don't see why we haven't had that costume yet. It's such an obvious fit and would rub those JRPG fans the the wrong way (everybody *that matters* wins). That or a 'Drag Queen' of War.

>entire DMC series
Just what is deemed to matter. Mostly DMC1 and DMC3. Certainly not DMC2.

>got weird
You're welcome.
#74Arc166Posted 11/29/2012 4:37:03 PM
Nope. I did not :D

YAY ABBREVIATIONS! I have no idea wtf ya saying! Funfun.

And Gimp of War isn't a costume because Kratos already is one. A serious bondage nut.
#75FireMage7777Posted 11/29/2012 4:37:52 PM
Your posting format is bad and you should feel bad
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How do you say "I need more power" in dinosaur? RAAAAAWR!!!
#76mmSNAKEPosted 11/29/2012 4:41:31 PM
God Hand Fresh Hard KMS
-Most fights allow you to pick off enemies one by one.
-The vast majority of regular enemies can be beaten individually with Jab>Straight>Guard Break with no real chance to retaliate.
-HSK lock, when applicable, breaks the game.
-Hand Plant Kick invalidates non-Elite regular foes.
-Most enemies that lack a ranged move can be knocked away with a critical High Side Kick reasonably easily.
-Drunken Twist beats every normal fight effortlessly but 8-1.


I'll give you the HSK lock, given that you can time it correctly every time. I brought up drunken twist, but yeah it is absurd with the i-frames you get from it.

I disagree that you can pick off enemies one by one in most circumstances. A lot of times it forces you to hit and run, constantly (that isn't picking them off). Which you also can do in GoW. This still doesn't cover that enemies will kill you just as easily as in GoW with no upgrades. It only takes you maybe 2-3 hits to die with upgrading your health, while in GoW you let go of that.

-Royalguard destroys most things regardless of weapon set up, and is easy to use with air parries.

That is so much easier said than done. Saying that you can just guard everything in the game is not a feat that is considered simple (even with air guard).

-Dante is extremely mobile; he has few commital attacks and can jump his way past anything.

Irrelevant because the pace and the sort of enemies that are thrown at you differ from game to game. Saying Kratos is less mobile means nothing because the sort of enemies that they face are different.

Rebellion's Combo I has appreciable DPS (most of any regular combo string IIRC).

It's still quite **** once enemies hit DT, and without flux, well they will be hitting DT.

Can stay offscreen and pick away with E&I.
I wonder how many hours it would take to kill the fallen doing that, if you can stay off screen in every instance.

DTE's spiffy. Taunts and RG builds it fast.
This is only good assuming you are perfect all the time with your guards. In that case you are one hell of a player. Otherwise you won't be using DTE too much and you will be saving it to finish off enemies before they can DT.

-cont
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Beatings will continue until morale improves!
#77Arc166Posted 11/29/2012 4:43:26 PM
Oh Devil Trigger Explosion.

Was wondering wtf a DTE was.
#78mmSNAKEPosted 11/29/2012 5:24:32 PM(edited)
DMC1 has the Grenade Gun and DT specific attacks. Most enemies die in seconds. DMC4 has distorted attacks (Real Impact being joke easy to use), Lucifer, Nero's charge shot and Buster.

Sorry I didn't put 3 in there. I didn't mean all games just the third one.

For DMC3:
-DTE
-Air Royalguard
-Gunslinger (in general)
-High powered jump cancel attacks (Killer Bee, Aerial Cross, Hammer, Starfall)
-Guard cancelled Spiral and KA
-Certain Style granted Crazy Combos (Real Impact, Ultimate Tempest, Point Blank, and in some cases Acid Rain)


All given, useful for sure. But how far do you want to go restricting. You can eliminate all of those. Or yet even with those try getting SS rank on every mission without upgrading your health, or buying moves. Only way I see it done is constant and perfect use of royal guard without a single miss. Again that isn't something that is as simple given.

The clones fight with that setup is absurdly difficult I agree. However it still doesn't hold to you saying you would have to perfectly guard everything in the game without problems. Getting SS rank you can't fumble not even once. So you bank your entire game, more or less on perfect execution of every single guard against large majority of attacks that go your way . Also rebellion does piss damage in general. More compared to what blades do for Kratos however it's not as safe to use as the blades are (minus the clone fight).

Also as you mentioned Kratos does get the grab. Though if you remove the grab use I'm guessing it would get a hell lot harder. But same can be done for DMC.

So I came to a conclusion that I was going about this the wrong way.

Ultimately, you can restrict each game to a point where it's impossible to beat it (while still making it playable). So how do you standardize to make it "equal" to how you can limit each game. What makes one limit in one game more than the other. NUR limit is a massive restriction while No upgrades in DMC3 aren't as bad because you can still get your RG, Kalina Ann and such. I don't see the point arguing the difficult upon restrictions. Because one can impose so many restrictions to make the games impossible.

Umm ****, I got lost a bit due to the way you reference other posts.
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Beatings will continue until morale improves!
#79SBK91Posted 11/29/2012 6:05:23 PM
Really? What of Persephone S2 in PAIN+?

She's terrible, but more 'grindy' than 'intense.' Tranny is more directly comparable DMC's and God Hand's speed. I'd probably think differently if I redid the Translator (and I might).

who only really factor thanks to NUR

And that's all they need.

I forget, they have the same rules as Bayonetta with regards to off-screen AI behavior?

Yes, for normal enemies at least.

Try your luck speeding things along.

I'll give it a shot. It seems to be used to get the first batch of double spawns under control, and for 'starting fresh' with a new wave after empyting a spawn pool (so the grouped clones don't die while you're Pluming them).

I don't know the rest well enough to comment.

The Jewel room is four waves of enemies ending with three Elites in stage 1 and a very high chance of spawning demons. Rather easy to cheese through once you know what you're doing.

Whip It is a lesser example. Mostly bothersome as it has no checkpoint and multiple Elites with ranged attacks. 7-2 is a lesser 8-1, but you lack the final tier of moves (Palm Smash being the big one). Both Whip It! and 7-2 are trivial with Drunken Twist.

Power won't matter even if it were 0% when you can still grab or ring-out (you'll have pathetic collision damage as such, but the trade works in your favor).

Something you wouldn't see in DMC or NG.

Until then...well SBK can tell you all about that as I once told him.

Lube helps.

I disagree that you can pick off enemies one by one in most circumstances

Outside the noted hard fights, where can't you that it matters? Toss objects, taunt, edge your way close, etc. Once isolated from the group they're all very simple.

A lot of times it forces you to hit and run,

Or Hand Plant Kick to Jump Roundhouse and destroy the group with impunity. HSK the individual ones away and take out the others with Reactions/Free Moves/HSK lock/whatever. Palm Smash is great for the short while you get it. Drunken Fall is free crowd control.

Which you also can do in GoW.

The difference is while you're fighting an isolated foe in GoW, in the vast majority of cases his buddies won't sit back and watch (the HCB being the biggest exception, and that requires abusing the AI).

It only takes you maybe 2-3 hits to die with upgrading your health,

Outside of Stage 8? In the vast majority of cases, no. Not hardly. And GoW has it's own high damage foes (GoS and CoO can get ridiculous). Poseidon can kill you very quickly on VH with MAX health.

Saying that you can just guard everything in the game is not a feat that is considered simple (even with air guard).

You don't need to Just Guard everything. Even semi-competent use of RG obliterates most foes (so long as it's supplemented with a weapon between Guards).
#80SBK91Posted 11/29/2012 6:05:49 PM
Irrelevant because the pace and the sort of enemies that are thrown at you differ from game to game.

Relevant: Kratos is easily cornered by large foes and has many attacks that either can't be cancelled out of (specials and enders) or requires him to get to the end of the string for any results (Spirit). His evades tend to be poor (air dash in GoW3 helps tremendously). Being surrounded by multiple large enemies is a very fast way to die (Wave 5 of the Endurance Run). Many fights rely on very strict positioning.

Dante, on the other hand, has a fast, i frame granting jump that cancels out of the majority of his attacks, which tend to be fairly short. He is never stopped from going where he wants to, and being completely surrounded presents no danger to him at all. GoW enemies and DMC3 enemies are fairly comparable in terms of aggression and speed.

It's still quite **** once enemies hit DT,

Prides are trash regardless of whether or not they're DTed. You can bring them all down to low health before killing. Chess pieces are simple. Dullahans and Blood Goyles are simple. Arachne's will be a pain, but with RG to supplement you there's little to fear. Almost all bosses will remain fairly simple.

Limiting yourself to Rebellion just makes things more grindy; limiting yourself to just the Blades changes the game entirely in many cases, and ruins some fights.

This is only good assuming you are perfect all the time with your guards.

Why is having to guard absolutely everything necessary? What about taunts?

But how far do you want to go restricting.

That's not what you said. You said there was nothing as safe and simple in DMC as picking away with square hits in GoW; that statement was wrong.

Or yet even with those try getting SS rank on every mission without upgrading your health, or buying moves.

It's been done with unupgraded Styles.

Also, you've switched goalposts. Before you were comparing fresh DMD with E&I, Rebellion and one Style to GoW's harder fights. Now you want SS. That strengthens the claim GoW is more difficult than you're giving it credit for.