DmC vs GOW (Combat)

#81SBK91Posted 11/29/2012 7:06:45 PM
Only way I see it done is constant and perfect use of royal guard without a single miss.

Why is guarding everything necessary? Why not just guard what your comfortable with and jump through everything else? If you're levelling Styles and can use any weapon, how big of a difference are these restrictions going to make? You have Hammer, Real Impact, Ultimate Tempest, Gunslinger Shotgun and Artemis, Killer Bee, Aerial Cross, guard cancelled Spiral and Kalina Ann, and Royalguard, with Trickster to make up for the lack of Air Hike. If you can't get an SS with that you're doing it wrong.

However it still doesn't hold to you saying you would have to perfectly guard everything in the game without problems.

You don't have to.

Getting SS rank you can't fumble not even once.

You're comparing getting a ranking to surviving a fight, and claiming the former fight is harder. Have you considered what would happen if you forced yourself to do the GoW fights without damage?

So you bank your entire game, more or less on perfect execution of every single guard against large majority of attacks that go your way.

Why? Why not stick to guarding the attacks you're comfortable with that give the most Rage and regularly evade everything else?

Also rebellion does piss damage in general.

Only due to the lack of high damage jump cancellable attack and how long Dance Macabre takes to execute *low DPS*. It's Combo 1 is the highest DPS regular combo in the game (above Dante's Beowulf), it's flexible, far reaching, fast, and combos on the ground better than any other weapon. Cerberus is the poor weapon. RG more than makes up for any lack of damage Rebellion may have.

More compared to what blades do for Kratos

...out of curiosity, what is your opinion on the Barbarian Hammer and Spear of Destiny in GoWII?

however it's not as safe to use as the blades are

>Rebellion
>superior speed, damage, and utility
>can be cancelled at almost any time
>isn't required to reach the end of a combo to accomplish anything
>not as safe as the Blades

WUT.

Ultimately, you can restrict each game to a point where it's impossible to beat it

Skorp is literally unbeatable without the Cestus.

So how do you standardize to make it "equal" to how you can limit each game.

Easy. Don't upgrade anything in either game at all. Compare. GoW1 Clones beats everything in DMC.

NUR limit is a massive restriction while No upgrades in DMC3 aren't as bad because you can still get your RG, Kalina Ann and such.

So GoW is harder, but isn't?

Because one can impose so many restrictions to make the games impossible.

Yes, but one can reference standard, popular runs and compare them. For DMC, this would be SS, fresh game, fresh SS, no upgrades, etc. For GoW, it's mostly NUR and PAIN. PAIN has harder fights than DMC. GoW comes out ahead for any given level of restriction after a certain point relative to DMC, and can keep up with God Hand in some instances.
#82MrStarkillerPosted 11/29/2012 8:00:28 PM
Mage: >format
You're tsundere for it. I like that.

NOTE: You didn't finish your sentence. More sweet words to add?

Arc: >did not
You seem quite proud of this. There is a culture just for that sort of reaction to not knowing things. I recall Chris Rock was not overly fond of them.

>text-based emoticon
*glove slap*
Mind your surroundings, my boy.

>abbreviations
Lots of initialism. Not too much in the way of acronymns. Some shorthand. Such is the way of things at the top.

>wtf
Bleh. What year is this?

>!
Mind the excitability. We're no bunch of 16-year-old-girls, son.

>Oh
You forgot the comma.

MM: >even with air guard
Are you quite certain, sport?

>means nothing
Careful with the absolutes. I did warn you. You must not be so careless.

>****
You forget the rules with regards to censoring?

>how many hours
Exaggeration noted.

>just the third
The devil is in the details. I feel like I've had to say this before.

>eliminate all of those
How would you go about eliminate all these in neat fashion? You going to specifically cherry pick those out? Seems tasteless. No Jump Cancels allowed? No styles other than Trickster? No DTE (or DT even)? Be sure to be the one who tests a proposed run. That's the classy way to do things, after all.

>ranks
A specialty/challenge run concern much like restrictions. Take this away from the equation (as it doesn't factor in GoW). What do you have? Look at Bayonetta now. Abuse items, disregard score, use OP set-ups, etc. Too easy, yes? Even on Climax.

>doesn't hold to
You don't seem to really appreciate what it is you're up against (and overstate the difficulty of RG). As before, the best way to resolve the matter is to teach you at better taste. We're here for you. I'm sure SBK would be happy to impart his own knowledge (that which wasn't from me) aside from what I've taught (or what he's picked up from the others). So then, about that run. GoW1 VH NUR+, yes?

>minus the clones
The focus of our discussion, really.

>the grab
One of his major assets (aside from collisions, environmental aids, simple blocks, i-frames abound *usually*, camera abuse, AI boundary abuse, etc.).

>guessing
I can tell you that the increase isn't so notable. NGR+ NUR+ in all entries has been tested. It had its charming moments (more so in the handhelds as with NBR+ NUR+), but those are imitations of the primary entries. To be expected.

>same for DMC
But not literally (as there is no grab outside of what Nero does *until Donte came along*). And DMC has no protection missions I can recall (which is a plus, really).

>impossible to beat
The Clones aren't. It's just obvious the design was not there for anything but the one way they intended for you to play it on lower settings. It's a huge difficulty spike if you play 'against the grain'. Giving GoW a strong case to argue even with minimal restrictions even if it is just one section that does this (as PAIN+ is a mess of conditions for the cases where it brings trouble *usually for lack of the 'return' option*).

To appreciate this properly, you need to have a go with it being that you could not properly visualize it on your own even with having noted vanilla VH experience in the entry along with NUR (or NUR+) in GoWII. Clearly a full run would be the best way to go about this. Thus the offer on the table. We'll show you way of the vets.
#83mmSNAKEPosted 11/29/2012 8:21:43 PM
You're comparing getting a ranking to surviving a fight, and claiming the former fight is harder. Have you considered what would happen if you forced yourself to do the GoW fights without damage?

Actually yes. That is what got me on the train of thought, and I saw I kept seeing different restrictions. Which comes to:

Why? Why not stick to guarding the attacks you're comfortable with that give the most Rage and regularly evade everything else?

Cause I was thinking of getting SS which without upgrades or such, for style would revolve around a lot of guarding. If I just wanted to finish, yes I could easily take my time and guard what i was most comfortable with.

Easy. Don't upgrade anything in either game at all. Compare. GoW1 Clones beats everything in DMC.

It's more complicated than that. Since styles will upgrade automatically with use, making release stronger. So what then don't use royal guard? Again pointless.

Yes, but one can reference standard, popular runs and compare them. For DMC, this would be SS, fresh game, fresh SS, no upgrades, etc. For GoW, it's mostly NUR and PAIN. PAIN has harder fights than DMC. GoW comes out ahead for any given level of restriction after a certain point relative to DMC, and can keep up with God Hand in some instances.

A standard for one game does not mean the same thing for another. Again you can keep making different restrictions to adjust a standard. Making self imposed challenges a bit pointless to compare. Take it as my conceit if you want, but I don't see point arguing this because it all comes down to how players end up restricting the game. Even with standards, those were made by players not the game. When we start making stuff up it doesn't compare well. I made a mistake trying to argue this without reasoning through it fully, but that is my conclusion at this point. Unless I made a mistake again.
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Beatings will continue until morale improves!
#84MrStarkillerPosted 11/29/2012 8:33:18 PM
>how to make it equal
Why not get down to business first? We can fret about all this after you get a better understanding of GoW. Then you can argue your thoughts about it as compared to DMC or whatever else suits your fancy. As you are now, there isn't much you can safely say without being checked. We're here to help. Don't forget this.

>massive
Not always. Depends on the case. In GoW, it usually means quite little. The Clones are just a case where the game was designed for specific upgrades (and more favoring extensions). You can have lvl4 BoC, lvl3 Artemis, lvl3 MG, lvl3 Zf, lvl1PR and lvlAoH and find yourself in a bad place. You don't have lvl5 BoC for Athena's Blessing. That's a problem.

You could have lvl5 BoC, but not make the most of it because of base bars and base spells. You could have MAX bars and everything else, but maybe you didn't upgrade the BoC (no counters, base power, no rage, etc.). Not ideal as the fight was actually designed with a solution in mind and it happens to be the case that workarounds have an uncharacteristically high demand for skill (well beyond the norm of the series).

In GoWIII, what does losing upgrades matter if the only upgrade that ever really meant much was the BoE and you can quickly abandon it anyway (if not already working around it)? CoO? When you have the GoZ, you've got a lot of power from the start. Grabs remain. There are workarounds even when wearing costumes to weaken yourself further as with GK (which you don't note yourself as having worked with *nor Apollo*).

>don't see
Come now. It's a part of the whole. Just as it is so when one humors talk of ranks in DMC, Bayonetta, NG, etc. They are equally as valid as the restriction runs, challenge runs, specialty runs, etc.

>lost
>in SBK's format
"Pathetic!" - Ares

NOTE: You still censoring the whole words? The term update for that was ages ago now.

SBK: >more grindy than intense
Like with Lahkesis in GKPAIN+, but only slightly more 'intense', yes? Mostly because of the one-shots lobbed your way in that last phase of the final stage. Repeated pillars, beams, etc. That dirty b****...

>redid Tranny
By all means. GKPAIN+ Zeus w/ BH...did you already have a taste? I know Taz did (probably the second chap after me).

>for normal enemies
Not so for bosses? Bayonetta seemed to allow it for some (if not all) bosses too. Jeanne was obvious about this courtesy (firing her bullets and mostly walking when not visible). Highly abusable.

>give it a shot
Suits me. Again, Taz is the one I'd most strongly suggest contacting to explain the method.

>wouldn't see in
They don't have some of these mechanics in play (or care to have costumes change stats to the degree as they can and sometimes do in GoW). And that's one of the lessons they could afford to learn (that Bayonetta actually took to heart with Jeanne and Zero). One could go on and on about how Bayonetta took the best and blended them while adding more (all its own). No need for all of that though. DMC4 showed some signs of getting this, but DmC...not so much.

>helps
Only so much. Grit your teeth, clinch your fists, say your prayers (to Allah), etc.

>object toss pulling
Wolfwood did a lot of this. Dark Souls had some of that too (arrows for early examples). Dead Space didn't really allow for that (but object tossing was no less important for my run work...but I didn't use guns, so I suppose I didn't have the normal experience).
#85MrStarkillerPosted 11/29/2012 8:35:27 PM
>HCB AI abuse
Some such things are specific to a given foe in a given location in a given entry. Context is key. You ever see the family moving videos where they get dumped into the kill collision (ring-out)? On low enough settings, they survive down there and the clones cannot reach them without dying instantly (so you win so long as you don't let yourself die). It's probably a good thing this never works on VH as they die instantly.

>high damage
Cyclops Tyrant grabs (GoS), Skorpius grab whiff, etc.

>Blades
Decent for set-ups, control (as for as GoW goes), etc. Not the best, but better than being weak and unable to cause collisions, open foes for grab variants, etc.

>more difficult than given credit for
Happens a lot, really. I'm sure SWFU1 would get a thumb of the nose from many who didn't play it seriously. It will teach them their place if they are not careful. But you've had a taste. It's not the biggest on the block, but it had its moments (enough to keep you interested).

>rank issues
What would the fights in GoW be like with strict time limits, no damage allowance and some manner of contrived system for 'style'? Quite a different beast. I'm used to taking my time, playing dirty from the sidelines (often literally), being able to roll with the few hits I might take, etc. Of course, on the front of no damage, you practically have to live with this for a long period of time with Persphone PAIN+ S2. To a lesser degree, Zeus GKPAIN w/ BH.

>opinion of
Sub-weapons in general would be better to question. Always makes for an amusing exchange. GoZ, Artemis/BotG, AoS, BH, BoO, SoD, Cestus, NW and CoH. One could extend this to spells, but who wants to get into all those? Narrow it down to petrification spells (to cut to the chase). Bringing up the collision system at all is fun. Tricking, cancels, etc. is neat, but working the environment is one of the more defining aspects of GoW combat (and even more so in SWFU1).

>unbeatable without Cestus
Damned Onyx...

>NUR Clones solo all of DMC
So there we have it. But don't take our word for it, lad. First hand experience is the best way to go about this (being that you can't visualize).

>PAIN
I try to avoid comparing it too much as earlier on it was established that a mess of restrictions weigh heavily on his mind (not that GoW1 PAIN has terribly many in reality). And with the Clones, a mere NUR suffices to get the point across (the rest of the run is a cakewalk by comparison).

>keep up with God Hand
High praise. Many have trouble contending with this fact. Where did you place NFR+ NUR+ Paratus again? I understand that his rank fell a great (no exaggeration) degree after the 'puzzle' was solved with a simple method offered up, but the process of learning how to do a fight is part of the challenge (when working the vanguard or just working without the tutoring of another).

MM: >automatic upgrading
Such a pity, yes? Dragon's Dogma had a similar issue. Simply terrible.

NOTE: I'm not seeing any talk of starting up that GoW1 run. You backing down from the Clones? Don't you want to have a go with them? Where's your lust for a challenge?
#86Arc166Posted 11/30/2012 5:19:18 AM
'Course I'm proud of not reading your horribly badly written posts. :D
#87ShinWeskerPosted 11/30/2012 6:31:32 AM
both have terrible combat.
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Shadows of the Damned is an awesome game.
#88Pesmerga255Posted 11/30/2012 6:41:59 AM
ShinWesker posted...
both have terrible combat.


God of War at least doesn't pretend that its combat is deep and stylish.
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I JUST KEEP BURNNING LOVE!
#89AlexxShadenk777Posted 11/30/2012 6:42:09 AM
DmC wins, no argument.
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PSN: AlexxShadenk777
#90MrStarkillerPosted 11/30/2012 8:43:50 AM
Arc: >still not using the comma
You trying to disappoint Sanic again, son? Why do you hate it?

>text-based emoticon
This look like your blog? It's not a social networking site either. Have some self-respect.

NOTE: Would you like me to teach you how to play GoW too? The offer is free-standing (open to all).

SupaWesley: You have much to learn, my boy. Like how to start a sentence properly.

Merga: >doesn't pretend to be deep and stylish
The latter is something it isn't trying for with regards to combo potential beyond small appeals to casuals (like CoC). Hit count is often enough to appease the masses. The former (depth) is another story, but you know this. Plenty of that, but it is focused on efficient play rather than playing with your food. Different philosophy.

Something like petrification would not fit DMC at all, but suits GoW. If DMC (now DmC) learned from Bayonetta (rather than forgetting all it had learned from GoW as well), it would have collisions to speak of between foes (friendly fire too).

Shad: >no argument
So, I see.

~Not much fight around these parts. All shallow and casual resistance. Pity.