Do you at least like the idea of a universal dodge button?

#51Slayer_22Posted 2/17/2013 5:49:20 AM
A_Nonny_Moose posted...
From: wolf rider | Posted: 2/17/2013 8:31:49 AM | #048
I've addressed this already. It's way too easy to screw up if Dante isn't perfectly facing 0, 90, 180 or 270 degrees and a jump comes out when you want to dodge an attack that can't be avoided by a jump (e.g., a boss' vertical slash).

You will avoid it anyway if you jump at the right time. The point of dodging in DMC isn't to physically avoid the attack, but time it properly that when the attack hits you it does no damage. Side roll and jump both do this.

One thing I dislike about the dodge in DmC, although it's more to do with the lack of lock on, is that Dante never looks focused. When he dodges he turns away from the enemy. He's always looking in the same direction that he's moving, which is just messy.

DMC2 did dodging better.


Isn't the point of dodging to AVOID. If you jump and get hit, but since you're invincible during that jump, take no damage, The only thing you really avoided was taking damaing. You didn't avoid or dodge the attack.
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#52produnerPosted 2/17/2013 6:06:44 AM
Slayer_22 posted...
A_Nonny_Moose posted...
From: wolf rider | Posted: 2/17/2013 8:31:49 AM | #048
I've addressed this already. It's way too easy to screw up if Dante isn't perfectly facing 0, 90, 180 or 270 degrees and a jump comes out when you want to dodge an attack that can't be avoided by a jump (e.g., a boss' vertical slash).

You will avoid it anyway if you jump at the right time. The point of dodging in DMC isn't to physically avoid the attack, but time it properly that when the attack hits you it does no damage. Side roll and jump both do this.

One thing I dislike about the dodge in DmC, although it's more to do with the lack of lock on, is that Dante never looks focused. When he dodges he turns away from the enemy. He's always looking in the same direction that he's moving, which is just messy.

DMC2 did dodging better.


Isn't the point of dodging to AVOID. If you jump and get hit, but since you're invincible during that jump, take no damage, The only thing you really avoided was taking damaing. You didn't avoid or dodge the attack.


Wait , so jumping is not avoiding attacks? wtf? it is a part of avoiding attacks even if you didn't use the invincibility frames; you can jump away from the attack's path. There are also jump backward or back flip, which is better for spacing and avoiding active frames if you get surrounded by a horde of enemies.
#53darkdragon_9600Posted 2/17/2013 6:09:51 AM
From: Slayer_22 | #051
A_Nonny_Moose posted...
From: wolf rider | Posted: 2/17/2013 8:31:49 AM | #048
I've addressed this already. It's way too easy to screw up if Dante isn't perfectly facing 0, 90, 180 or 270 degrees and a jump comes out when you want to dodge an attack that can't be avoided by a jump (e.g., a boss' vertical slash).

You will avoid it anyway if you jump at the right time. The point of dodging in DMC isn't to physically avoid the attack, but time it properly that when the attack hits you it does no damage. Side roll and jump both do this.

One thing I dislike about the dodge in DmC, although it's more to do with the lack of lock on, is that Dante never looks focused. When he dodges he turns away from the enemy. He's always looking in the same direction that he's moving, which is just messy.

DMC2 did dodging better.


Isn't the point of dodging to AVOID. If you jump and get hit, but since you're invincible during that jump, take no damage, The only thing you really avoided was taking damaing. You didn't avoid or dodge the attack.

I get what you're saying, but then again, you could be jumping over the attack, which means you avoided it. The same way some moves in DmC would hit you anyway, even when dodging, but i-frames make you take 0 damage. That's not a solid argument.
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#54A_Nonny_MoosePosted 2/17/2013 6:12:50 AM
From: Slayer_22 | Posted: 2/17/2013 1:49:20 PM | #051
Isn't the point of dodging to AVOID.

Well... no. Not in DMC. The point of dodging was to use the i-frames to avoid being hit, not to create enough space to avoid being hit.
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#55Psychochild27Posted 2/17/2013 11:36:08 AM(edited)

Isn't the point of dodging to AVOID. If you jump and get hit, but since you're invincible during that jump, take no damage, The only thing you really avoided was taking damaing. You didn't avoid or dodge the attack.


According to your logic, dodges aren't dodges in DmC then because they have I-Frames that let Dante roll through enemy attacks (Stupid large hitboxes on certain moves aside). Hell, he doesn't even have any collision detection on enemies while he's in the roll animation, which means you can clip straight through an enemy's crotch.

In other words, that is very stupid logic.

I've addressed this already. It's way too easy to screw up if Dante isn't perfectly facing 0, 90, 180 or 270 degrees and a jump comes out when you want to dodge an attack that can't be avoided by a jump (e.g., a boss' vertical slash).


The dodge input is much more forgiving than you're giving it credit for. If you're moving backwards whether or not you're strafing when you hit the dodge, yeah you're going to jump backwards because that's a valid evasive option. However, DMC4 gives the player a fair amount of leeway when it comes to inputs that are forward/left or forward/right where if Dante's animation isn't explicitly walking forward, it's a viable roll input.

Honestly, if you can't handle rolls in DMC4, doing stinger inputs or really any analog input to get the lock-on to kick in playing on DmC must be a nightmare due to how much more narrow the directional window is to get Dante to successfully lock on to something.
#56Xtreme65Posted 2/17/2013 11:45:54 AM
In comparison to DMC3 yes they got it right. After playing DMC3 I hated how I could only have one style. Dodging is a must have for me, but having trickster means absolutely no air combos from swordmaster or extra gun moves from gunslinger.

DMC4 on the other hand had it right with style switching. Also Table Hopper sucked, don't know why people say its fine when it was just rolling at the moment of an attack. Felt much more restricting and clumsy than Trickster and the way DmC did it. Hell even DMC2 did it better.
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#57Psychochild27Posted 2/17/2013 1:53:02 PM
DMC4 on the other hand had it right with style switching. Also Table Hopper sucked, don't know why people say its fine when it was just rolling at the moment of an attack. Felt much more restricting and clumsy than Trickster and the way DmC did it. Hell even DMC2 did it better.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzYtvka8hEY

It offers complete I-Frames coverage while it's active, gets you three dashes per successful activation and as you can see above, it can be chained into itself so long as you're evading while Nero continues being in a precarious position to take damage. It's basically DMC3's Triple Dash with a strict opening to activate and much more superior for the extra effort required; DMC3 Trickster did not offer any I-Frames for the second or third dash, those were strictly for positioning and extra mobility.
#58Draconic_SeedPosted 2/17/2013 5:51:17 PM
wolf rider posted...
Pressing three buttons as well as keeping track of which direction Dante is facing is hardly more natural than a single dodge button + direction input. If anything, it's the overly complex dodging that serves as a gimmick to make the game difficult.


This, 1000 times.

Some of the things I couldn't stand in old DMC games were the unintuitive and convoluted controls and bad camera angles done in purpose just for the sake of difficulty. A very, very fake difficulty.

I guess in the minds of DMC fanboys we should go back to DOS, because Windows and other modern operational systems are making computers way too easy and casual. Let's go back to memorizing a bunch of command lines and dealing with crappy interfaces because using a mouse to point and click is not "hardcore" enough.
#59wolf rider(Topic Creator)Posted 2/18/2013 12:13:54 AM
A_Nonny_Moose posted...
The point of dodging in DMC isn't to physically avoid the attack, but time it properly that when the attack hits you it does no damage.


I think I understand what you're saying. While it is technically correct to say you are using i-frames to jump/roll through enemy attacks, that is only how the hardcore, technical DMC fans think of it while playing.

What you and many describe are the mechanics of how evasion is implemented, not how evasion was intended to be seen. I very much doubt the developers intended for gamers to ignore what they see on screen with their eyes, and learn and rely on a move's i-frames to deliberately pass through attacks as a means of evasion. It is much more intuitive for the gamer to see Dante avoid an attack than to pass through it.

I-frames were likely implemented to offset the minor delays between a gamer recognising an incoming attack, entering a dodge command, and Dante actually starting the jump/roll animation. It was to provide some leeway to the player in such a fast paced action game. It would suck if Dante was repeatedly swatted out of the air after his feet left one centimeter off the ground.

Conversely, if people think jumping and dodging are fundamentally the same, why are they opposed to having the side roll command be a single button + direction and not dependent on what direction Dante is facing, when jumping is implemented the same way?

Psychochild27 posted...
According to your logic, dodges aren't dodges in DmC then because they have I-Frames that let Dante roll through enemy attacks (Stupid large hitboxes on certain moves aside). Hell, he doesn't even have any collision detection on enemies while he's in the roll animation, which means you can clip straight through an enemy's crotch.

In other words, that is very stupid logic.


It's all about implementation. In DMC, the attacks are so fast that momentarily passing through them doesn't really break immersion, especially since, for example, horizontal attacks are made to look like there is room to roll underneath them.

In DmC though, when you slowly pass through an attack with your whole body, it just looks silly. That's the difference in experience between developers I guess. Plenty of devs copy things that work in other games without understanding why they work,
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#60MogogglePosted 2/18/2013 3:26:39 AM
The way dodging works in DmC is perfect. Very easy to use, and great in tight spots without having to worry about what direction you're facing. As long as you dodge in SOME direction right before you're hit- you're golden.

I think it was stupid to have dodge mapped to both L1 and R1. I change my controls to make R1 the dodge button (because I'm a Demon Dodge abuser) and L1 to DT (because who the f*** wants to click in both sticks to DT?)
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