It sickens me how people can say this game is WORSE than DMC 2...

#61caffiend7Posted 5/20/2013 11:59:22 AM
I had more fun playing DMC2 on DMD than playing the DmC demo
#62rockman11_zPosted 5/20/2013 12:00:18 PM
DmC flopped so why bother playing it? Lol
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#63Psychochild27Posted 5/20/2013 4:00:45 PM
I can't figure out how NT dropped the ball so much, all they had to do was look at what DMC3&4 did right and work from there. Just look at the source material


They did though. They explicitly designed the combat engine to emulate DMC3 and 4 with concessions to make the game "More accessible."

This meant throwing out DMC4 Dante's gameplay, putting Nero in his place and loading down the D-Pad buttons with uninspired weapons the best of which shamelessly rob moves and mechanics from the source games (Kablooey is Lucifer dumbed down to a single mechanic, Rebellion is Red Queen, Arbiter's single interesting move Tremor is a combination of DMC4 Rebellion's Quick Drive with normal Drive's launch properties, Aquila's interesting moves are Calibur, Round Trip and Buy-In which is as original a mechanic NT could contribute).

There's very little NT can call their own besides branching delayed weapon combos, stances (Heavenly Sword) and weapon-immune mobs. The soft-lock combat mechanics are from Bayonetta and DmC's heavy platforming is a dumbed down version of Nero's Grim Grip sections (Dumbed down in that Nero's actually took his starting position into consideration for his trajectory).
#64Edward_R_MurrowPosted 5/20/2013 6:49:18 PM
Psychochild27 posted...
Arbiter's single interesting move Tremor is a combination of DMC4 Rebellion's Quick Drive with normal Drive's launch properties, Aquila's interesting moves are Calibur, Round Trip and Buy-In which is as original a mechanic NT could contribute).


The Drive/Tremor comparison really shows how Ninja Theory's move designs are lacking. Drive, in DMC4, is an excellent move with a lot of use against many enemy types. You can get (relatively safe) ranged damage on things like Chimera-infected foes, launch/juggle "lighter" assailants, or distort Overdrive for great damage against hardened foes. It's a move with plenty of utility and applications.

Tremor on the other hand works only on lightweight enemies and it's use is limited mostly to launching them. That's it. Pretty much the story with tons of the DmC moveset: works mostly on Stygian-weight enemies. Things like Buy-In, Rake, Tremor, Drop, Big Slick, etc.

stances (Heavenly Sword)


Do "stances", as Ninja Theory has implemented them, actually have any meaningful gameplay additions to offer? It seems like nothing but an alternative way of selecting weapons and nothing more. The different dodges could easily be implemented in other ways and gaining immunity to certain terrain or passive enemy attacks while having a weapon equipped is nothing new (Fire Durga and Odette say hello).

DmC's heavy platforming is a dumbed down version of Nero's Grim Grip sections (Dumbed down in that Nero's actually took his starting position into consideration for his trajectory).


Not to mention DMC4 had more than just Grim Grip sections for, uh, "environmental traversal" challenges, many of which were optional and took advantage of things other than just the Devil Bringer. Plenty of things rewarded you for using the Streak/Stinger-jump or Calibur to reach locations. For instance, instead of fighting the Mephistos on the vanishing tiles, you could fight them on solid ground, kill 'em, Calibur back over to the tiles, and then Calibur again if you were impatient.
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#65TheOmegaShen(Topic Creator)Posted 5/20/2013 7:10:08 PM
ScreamingMidget posted...
TC, are you saying DMC2 is worse than Knight's Contract?

You must be trolling.


I don't even have a clue what that could possibly be...
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#66Psychochild27Posted 5/20/2013 9:25:55 PM(edited)
Big Slick


Does Big Slick work? The Training Dojo deposits Dante right next to the enemy after Big Slick. In-game, they end up five feet under him.

Do "stances", as Ninja Theory has implemented them, actually have any meaningful gameplay additions to offer? It seems like nothing but an alternative way of selecting weapons and nothing more. The different dodges could easily be implemented in other ways and gaining immunity to certain terrain or passive enemy attacks while having a weapon equipped is nothing new (Fire Durga and Odette say hello).


Not particularly. Angel Dodge and Demon Dodge are easily made baseline by letting Dante spam roll inputs without holding a trigger to get the effect and (Narrowing the window immensely) just doing the Table-Hopper thing with Demon Dodges. For the obscene benefit it gave you and how easily it broke style requirements, it should've demanded that from day one.

As for everything else, all it does is make it easier to skip between all five weapons on aerial combos as you won't likely be wanting to make analog inputs in the air which is commendable (Double weapon swapping JC combos in DMC4 were very tricky), but this had very little impact on the ground game in DMC4 because it didn't matter much and it only makes guns less appealing in DmC because...

1.) You have to go out of your way to swap them out by hitting "Up" on the D-Pad
2.) Forcing you to not be in a stance to shoot them.
3.) Force you to drop a stance before you start charging a gun because Snatch and Pull share that button. However, somehow holding it before you change stance and releasing it after you do does not stop Dante from using that attack making charge attacks more complicated than they need to be.
4.) Requires you to drop stance to use Gun Specials (Very important for Kablooey where you WANT to be able to use those explosions while doing other actions).


The Drive/Tremor comparison really shows how Ninja Theory's move designs are lacking. Drive, in DMC4, is an excellent move with a lot of use against many enemy types. You can get (relatively safe) ranged damage on things like Chimera-infected foes, launch/juggle "lighter" assailants, or distort Overdrive for great damage against hardened foes. It's a move with plenty of utility and applications.

Tremor on the other hand works only on lightweight enemies and it's use is limited mostly to launching them. That's it. Pretty much the story with tons of the DmC moveset: works mostly on Stygian-weight enemies. Things like Buy-In, Rake, Tremor, Drop, Big Slick, etc.


This is more of Ninja Theory's design philosophy in action. Overdrive was more difficult to land all three blows on in DMC4 because you needed proper spacing to land them. This often made Quick Drive the better option in melee situations (And it also covered space directly behind him). Plus, Drive was slow to get out in the first place which balanced it against being spammed too much in the first place and kept the damage in check. It made the attack interesting and served as a good incentive to encourage players to style/weapon swap frequently to employ it for Straight/Trickster Dash positioning (And possibly to want to use expel DT to get to that position quicker with infinite Dashes).

That's pretty clever.

Here, it's annoying to do that because the lack of lock-on makes it hard to keep focus on a target while you get in place and it forces people to actually take their position into consideration which invites a hint of depth. So instead we make Quick Drive Overdrive to make it mindless, spammable and stupid OP at all ranges while making Drive into a ridiculous launcher with limited to no utility on heavy hitters, shielded/demon-immune enemies and flyers because we can't have that in this game. Think of the casuals!
#67xhominidPosted 5/21/2013 12:15:37 PM
Man, I don't get how people can say Lollipop Chainsaw is a bad HnS...

Of course compared to Bayonetta and DMC4, of course it would, but I think it's ridiculous to somehow say DmC is better than it because it's more "fluid" because as I remember from the time of the demo...it's not.

Atleast LC has it's buttons in order and doesn't force your hands into stupid positions because the developers are too stupid to use all the buttons the right way. Atleast the enemies are responsive as hell and can give a good challenge and atleast the moves flow well if you don't try to make it act like Bayonetta or DMC4(the moves are kinda like MK9 and Injustice with input following).

The only thin DmC beats LC at is basically the fact you aren't as COMMITED with Input Following and the game SEEMS faster, but there's no freaking DmC is better than LC when LC actually has a freakin Lock-On button and bosses that are actually entertaining(but still easy atleast on Normal...)
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#68KyryloPosted 5/21/2013 12:17:40 PM
xhominid posted...
Man, I don't get how people can say Lollipop Chainsaw is a bad HnS...

Of course compared to Bayonetta and DMC4, of course it would, but I think it's ridiculous to somehow say DmC is better than it because it's more "fluid" because as I remember from the time of the demo...it's not.

Atleast LC has it's buttons in order and doesn't force your hands into stupid positions because the developers are too stupid to use all the buttons the right way. Atleast the enemies are responsive as hell and can give a good challenge and atleast the moves flow well if you don't try to make it act like Bayonetta or DMC4(the moves are kinda like MK9 and Injustice with input following).

The only thin DmC beats LC at is basically the fact you aren't as COMMITED with Input Following and the game SEEMS faster, but there's no freaking DmC is better than LC when LC actually has a freakin Lock-On button and bosses that are actually entertaining(but still easy atleast on Normal...)


I agree about bosses.:D
#69SlaveBladePosted 5/21/2013 12:42:58 PM
I'm not twisting your words, I'm applying logic.

I state that using colored enemies as the primary method to distinguish them with a game that leans heavily on strong colored lighting of those same shades makes them difficult to read and tell the difference from one to the other at a glance making it a horrible idea. The only way you can really tell is to take a guess and a swing (Or in Rage's case, release a trigger).

You state that's not the case because you have to perform extra steps to identify them which guessing from your response doesn't entail simply looking at them.

Doing so, then it's clear that there's not enough information conveyed to the user at a glance without performing extra steps (Which is a recurring problem in DmC: See the lack of a soft lock indicator that even Bayonetta had the good sense to include).

So how is what you're saying any different from what I'm saying? You may not agree it's a significant issue, but you have to agree it's not enough because you need those extra steps.


There is plenty of information you get at a glance, and trying to turn a literal letting go of a trigger for even a quarter of a second into some painstakingly bad gameplay design that hurts the over-all experience of the game is just baffling. The first time it happens, ok, you're supposed to identify what happened. OK, cool, you know WTF is happening. It happens again? It's not the game's fault anymore, the player had every chance to see what was going on and refused to cope. End of story.
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