So I'm watching this new DMC4 Combo Video...

#41Psychochild27(Topic Creator)Posted 8/15/2013 7:30:24 PM(edited)
Given by your lack of objection to my analysis, you concur with it, yes?


I disagree vehemently but I got better ways to spend my time than getting into another argument with you, especially an argument we had on the same exact points we did months ago.
#42SBK91Posted 8/15/2013 9:16:38 PM
I disagree vehemently but I got better ways to spend my time than getting into another argument with you

>better ways to spend time
>hangs out on DmC board

I see.
#43darkslayer001Posted 8/15/2013 10:04:33 PM
not gonna argue with SBK91 regarding DMC4 combat, since we all know his stand on it, but I would like to give my opinions on some of the things he touched.

- distortion was kinda overpowered especially in DMD, but I liked the idea


DMC3 was as much about over-the-top stylish action as it was about top-notch technical gameplay,

Precisely. Why DMC4 scaled back both is puzzling.


-I did feel DMC4 progression was natural from DMC3, could have been more but didn't feel like scaled back. some of YT combos still puzzles me on how they pull it off. like every move in 4 has its purpose or can be used in a combo.

-all the enemies felt tougher (except for scarecrows) when I played Dante for the first time, Nero was too easy and fun to handle.

- Nero's combat scenarios are watered down due to his lack of variety in moves and devil arms. I just play him for his brute damage with devil bringer, visual moves, and red queen has some nice combos that was ruined by DmC.



Gunslinger and RG are now worthless, Gilgamesh's Swordmaster attacks are worse (the weapon is far less usable than Beowulf or Ifrit), Lucifer's SM attacks redundant, non-DTed Trickster's inferior, Yamato's Aerial Rave and Combo have less range, Judgement Cut's been gutted, and no Rapid Slash or Upper Slash; Taunt's crap, no more switch cancelling guns, charge shots are much weaker, no melee crowd control on par with Nevan/Tempest, no DTE, Crazy Combos, etc. All while having a smaller moveset. If you have any reason Dante hasn't been nerfed beyond Distortion, Style switching, normal shotgun shots and being able to use lunge attacks continuously, I'd love to hear it.


i used gunslinger like once in 3, felt it was a little more useful in 4. RG timing was more reduced in DMC4, preferred the longer frames in 3. agree on Gilgamesh's swordmaster being less useful. i think 3 and 4 had the same trickster when non-DTed except for wall run, which i barely used. well I know its less preferable but seeing that dante is using Yamato, i dont mind the changes it got since it doesn't change the combat potential and isnt a full devil arm and its not up to par with Vergil's skill with the sword. its like if Vergil uses rebellion, it will be thousand stabs instead of million stabs. Taunt was alright with me. didn't mind switch cancelling removal, since i only found it useful in 3 while draining away bosses' life like distortion. maybe there is a combo potential that i dont know about with switch cancelling.
without charged shots i dont think i could have finished DMD in 4 on my first try. thought Lucifer was crowd control. smaller moveset yes, but a moment in 4 had more options than 3.

-regarding the whole adapting to 4 thing, imo they made 4 "tougher" to deal with enemies by removing certain things that made DMC3 easier, didn't change the depth, but did change the ease of "accessing" an enemy.
At first i was kinda frustrated with the tougher JC and enemies falling out of attacks, but once i practiced, it was easy.




You mean like DMC4's Million Stab, Dance Macabre, Lucifer Combo C, Lucifer Combo E, and Red Queen Combo B? Crazy Combos where the strongest individual attacks in DMC3, gave some use to the Style gauge in combat, provided good stunlock, broke guards, and most were very cancellable. Contrast DMC4's terribad Omen, Kick-13, etc.


Do agree with those points but removing these things didn't feel like it pulled down the entire combat for me. sure adding it will only expand, but didn't think it harmed Dante's change from DMC3 to DMC4
#44SBK91Posted 8/15/2013 11:20:48 PM
distortion was kinda overpowered especially in DMD, but I liked the idea

The problem isn't that it's OP, it's that a lot of stuff was nerfed for the sake of 'balance' which was made pointless by Distortion being broken as Hell, so you end up using only a small part of a smaller moveset for damage.

could have been more but didn't feel like scaled back

Notice that the vast majority of DMC4 combo videos are aerial. That's because air attacks get the most from having access to everything at once, while everything but Rebellion and Lucifer/Yamato strings plays like ass on the ground.

like every move in 4 has its purpose or can be used in a combo.

Beowulf Combo A. The final kick takes an absurd amount of time to position (ruining the DPS). Kick-13, once activated, can't be cancelled by any means and doesn't track enemy movement. Draw ruins Full Steam's use as an approach; Roundtrip is too damn slow to have any practical value (unlike Sword Pierce, but that's Style specific), Lucifer's strings are all piss weak and generate swords much slower than Pin Up/Splash, two Dimensional Slashes are redundant, etc.

all the enemies felt tougher (except for scarecrows) when I played Dante for the first time,

Dante can kill everything much faster than Nero and is more versatile. That is objective fact (not a comment on your play style). Frosts become a problem due to nothing short of Real Impact/Buster getting past their super armor in one blow.

Nero's combat scenarios are watered down due to his lack of variety in moves and devil arms

In other words, he's worse.

i used gunslinger like once in 3, felt it was a little more useful in 4.

As a huge fan of Gunslinger in DMC3, I strongly disagree. KA was terrible, no denying that, but Hysteric could still be useful if paired with charge shots and Grapple>Explosion can out DPS normal combo strings. Both E&I and Shotgun charge shots are much weaker (at least half power, if not less) with the Shotgun lacks double hits. Cancelling normal shots with Twosome Time in DMC3 (which can't be done in 4) is safer and stronger than Honeycomb. No Wild Stomp. Gunstinger is weaker by itself with no Point Blank and lots of lag, compared with 3's which beat RG out for damaging A&R. Fireworks in 4 is slower, laggier, and can't be extended. IIRC it doesn't cancel Gunstinger either.

Pandora's Disaster attacks where usually impractical due to the amount of time it took to fill the gauge and the attacks themselves being substandard. Omen took forever, leaved you open, and was weak on DMD (not consistently one shotting Scarecrows with a full gauge). Grief was a less efficient use of gauge than Augment and left you open. Augment itself was nice, but you only got two shots.

Compared to Artemis, with Multilock letting you deal high damage safely from anywhere on screen all day, erryday, with uber Style and DT generation. Acid Rain had the highest potential damage of any attack was good for crowds of Hells at S style or higher. GS Spiral was easy mode used right, with Richochet hitting anything anywhere, decent stun, very high DT generation, and good damage, Reflector being a risker but stronger alternative.

RG timing was more reduced in DMC4

The gauge builds much slower and guard cancelling isn't as great either. For what it's worth, Ultimate>Dreadnaught.
#45SBK91Posted 8/15/2013 11:24:09 PM(edited)
i think 3 and 4 had the same trickster when non-DTed

DMC3 gets Triple Dashes in addition to wall running, DMC4 gets Mustang (worthless) and an aerial recovery (good).

i dont mind the changes it got since it doesn't change the combat potential

You cannot deny it was nerfed compared to DMC3 (losing one of its two great attacks).

Taunt was alright with me.

Far slower for less DT and pitful Style increase. Awful.

maybe there is a combo potential that i dont know about with switch cancelling.

I'm talking rapidly switching to throw out Spiral/KA shots quickly for great DT and superb stunlock. Sword Pierce+KA/Spiral switch cancels work too well.

without charged shots i dont think i could have finished DMD in 4 on my first try.

Most likely due to the Shotgun's normal shots being better.

thought Lucifer was crowd control.

Compared to Nevan, it did less damage, less AoE, less stun, worse range, didn't mesh with guns as well, built Style slower, and had a significantly worse Swordmaster moveset.

but a moment in 4 had more options than 3.

Which were individually worse than 3's (Distortion aside). It's jack of all trades vs specialization. Nature favors the latter.

imo they made 4 "tougher" to deal with enemies...but did change the ease of "accessing" an enemy.

They flip flopped enemy/boss design from 3. Normal enemies got arbitrary shields while bosses were constantly exposed.

Do agree with those points but removing these things didn't feel like it pulled down the entire combat for me.

One of the many facets downgraded. It adds up. I doubt anyone would miss Omen for having a Tempest-like move back.
#46Psychochild27(Topic Creator)Posted 8/16/2013 6:44:43 AM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
#47Psychochild27(Topic Creator)Posted 8/16/2013 7:07:53 AM(edited)
Just going to comment on one thing:

I doubt anyone would miss Omen for having a Tempest-like move back.


Yes, everyone would prefer a limited AOE damage attack to an ability that was a room-wide enemy shield dispel for a third of the game's enemies regardless of Disaster Gauge (And one of the most efficient without any DT investment or positioning requirements).

You'd have been better off complaining about Argument, Omen holds immense utility even without a damage component.
#48demonfang178Posted 8/16/2013 12:53:08 PM
Psychochild27 posted...
Just going to comment on one thing:

I doubt anyone would miss Omen for having a Tempest-like move back.


Yes, everyone would prefer a limited AOE damage attack to an ability that was a room-wide enemy shield dispel for a third of the game's enemies regardless of Disaster Gauge (And one of the most efficient without any DT investment or positioning requirements).

You'd have been better off complaining about Argument, Omen holds immense utility even without a damage component.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqb5QvJp5_A&list=PL05581689F0A12944&index=6

But then, I've never used Tempest for its AoE.
#49SBK91Posted 8/16/2013 4:53:51 PM
Yes, everyone would prefer a limited AOE damage attack

A limited AoE attack that shut down fights by itself linked to one of the strongest attacks in the series that makes DTed Hells/Abysses launchable.

to an ability that was a room-wide enemy shield dispel for a third of the game's enemies regardless of Disaster Gauge

That consists mostly of uncancellable recovery frames, it being rare for you to catch more than one foe before their shields come back. As far as the enemies go:

Assault-Can't block attacks from behind, in the air, or when knocked down. Low health and hardly block anyway.

Angelo Bianco-Can't block attacks from behind or in the air. Meh health, dies to one DTed RI/charged Full Steam. Easily launched with Reb. Why bother with the shield?

Alto-Reflect the orb shot with Ecstasy/Prop (if they have friends) otherwise Prop/Dance Macabre to any offense you want. Again, no need for Omen.

Mephisto/Faust-JCed Shotgun blasts take down the cloaks in less time than an Omen animation while dealing damage, staying mobile and let you respond immediately.

Blitz-Good luck pulling it off without getting smacked.

Omen holds immense utility even without a damage component.

I'd hope so, since the damage is awful for the investment.

>demonfang
>Ultimate Tempest

Quite.
#50jayganautPosted 8/16/2013 5:20:14 PM
I would personally still prefer Omen over Tempest.

The recovery frames aren't too much of an issue as the enemies you use it against will be in enough stun (providing they're not in the air) that they won't attack you after.

The Angelos will fly out of aerial combos if they still have their shields and as for Blitz, there are specific animations/attacks that you can easily put an Omen in and not get hit (especially when they're re-shielding)

It's an incredibly functional move and one far more important than simply another damage or launching tool.