If you were given the DMC license and a big budget...

#1DullahansXMarkPosted 10/8/2013 11:12:11 PM
How would you go about innovating the series with DMC5?

Every game in the series has advanced the DMC formula in some form or another. With DMC4, the combat mechanics were pretty much infallible. DMC2 added (albeit primitive) style moves and instant weapon switching (DMC1 had quick weapon switching, but not instant), DMC3 properly added styles, PROPER instant weapon switching (in DMC2 you couldn't change guns during some actions), and a large array of usable weapons, among other mechanics additions. DMC4 added style switching, which really raised the bar on combo potential despite how simple of an addition it was.

Then of course there are the multiple playable characters in each game. Thing is, this really is no way to "innovate" the series because it's been around since the beginning: DMC1 had Sparda (who technically counts even if everything about him is a re-skin of Dante), DMC2 had Lucia and Trish, DMC3 had Vergil, and DMC4 had Nero, who is arguably the greatest of the extra characters gameplay-wise (though I could see an argument made for Vergil, too).

So how WOULD you do it? Would you even mess with the combat? Would you do other things to the gameplay (things that aren't the combat system) instead?

Here are three things I would do:

>In addition to bringing back a large array of weapons a la DMC3 (DMC3 had 10 weapons, DMC4 had 6), I'd let the player simple carry as many of the weapons as he WANTS into the mission. Something that sorta bothered me in DMC4 was having to double-tap the weapon change button to get from Gilgamesh to Rebellion when in DMC3 getting from Beowulf to Rebellion was as simple as one button press. Basically, the key here is, you can carry as little as four weapons (two guns and two Arms) and as many as ten weapons (or however many the game would have; which, I would probably bring several into the mix considering what else I'm about to bring up.). Simple, or complex. However you'd like it.

>Enable the ability to perform a good amount of your skills without having to lock on to an enemy. As I said before, one thing I liked about DmC was that you could theoretically Stinger one enemy, then immediately Stinger another without having to fumble with target changing. Like, if you weren't locked on, you would double-tap in a direction then use Rebellion to do Stinger. Tap in one direction then in the opposite direction to do High Time and launch the enemy up. Stuff like that could really help for normal gameplay, because Stinger can be adapted into a crowd control move. And just because I know that it'll be an issue eventually, make this feature of the game an option. Like, you can go into Settings and make it so you can't do these moves this way. Basically so this feature doesn't affect high-level play.

>Easily the biggest of these changes and one that certainly isn't entirely my own idea, but make DMC an open world game. Now, I know, "loldude open world = answer to everything now", but think about this. You are Dante. You're just chilling at Devil May Cry/Devils Never Cry with Lady and Trish, when you get a call. "Help!" they say, "#demons have #awakened!" Dante smiles as he hops on his motorcycle (you start the game borrowing Lady's motorcycle and pay her 5% of your mission reward money until you get your own, eventually getting the one in DMC2 as the ultimate bike), races across town, dispatches demon scum back to Hell, gets paid, and goes and chillaxes at a pizza place. Does that not sound like the potential to be an amazing game? And imagine, as the plot thickens, the city starts being subjected to the demons and the atmosphere starts changing. It could be wild! And once you beat the game, you can go back and play story chapters kinda like in The World Ends With You if anyone's ever played that.

What about you guys? What are your thoughts? How would you innovate the series instead?
#2DMANSLANDPosted 10/9/2013 12:02:23 AM
For combat, as clunky as it may sound, weapon wheel. You can order them however you'd like though so simple tapping the button cycles to the next and so forth while holding it brings out the weapon wheel.

All weapons, all times. Nothing is worse than choosing between a lot of amazing weapons and being able to only carry 2.

Bring back the training mode from DmC, it's one thing they got right.

DMC4 style system, but make it so the more you level it up, you get different perks from styles that were omitted, that way you won't be limited to only just 4 since you would change with the d-pad again, like swordmaster can have some of gunsliger, trickster can have some of doppleganger, royal guard can have some of quick silver and so on.

Bring back the amazing music from 3. DmC had some hit and miss tracks but DMC3 really gets your going.

Lock on and taunting, of course.

Style system from the previous games, and lower difficulty from the older ones, but higher than DmC. I don't mind hard games, but it can get discouraging sometimes getting your ass kicked nonstop, yet I don't want it to be a cake walk either.

A whip of some sorts as a gap closer, so you can continue your combo easier, but if so make the style meter run out faster unless you're attacking.
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#3NostalgiaRulesPosted 10/9/2013 12:26:01 AM
-I'd make Lady and Trish playable characters. Not just re-skins of Dante. They'd have completely separate move sets and fighting styles. They'd also have separate campaigns from each other and 15 missions each.

-Every weapon Dante has ever collected throughout the DMC series (save for DMC 2) would be available to use.

-New and final mission for Dante: Defeat Mundus once and for all and revive Vergil. (we didn't actually see Vergil die)

-Open world roaming like you said.

-Bring Nero back and give him more weapons for goodness sakes.

-Once Dante saves Vergil and beats the game, Vergil is now available to play.


That's all I can think of for now.
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#4HellVGuardPosted 10/9/2013 12:36:25 AM
Interesting. So the double-tap mechanic is exactly similar to bayonetta's, where if you are not locked on, you could stinger and enemy by double tapping LS.

For weapon switching, it was quite a pain in DMC4 as lucifer wasnt part of many of my combos unless I was using sword master. I think it would do well if we were able to assign sets of weapons with each set carrying 2 weapons and the sets could be changed mid combat instantly. Pretty much like Alastor-Ifrit switch mechanic in DMC, except that the set switch is much more instant (imagine swapping sets in bayonetta) and can be performed using the RS, as for reset camera, the input could be LS+RS.

As for playable charachter I would really love to see sparda in action, and by sparda I mean the DEMON, not his human form. I know this would be a very overpowered character much like super corrupt vergil from DMC3SE (guy doesnt flinch at all an destroys everything), but he would have his own seperate mode and is unlocked after completing DMD along with the traditional unlockable super costumes.

With this playable sparda, since its his demon form, his DT could be replaced by the spectral dragon he launches at mundus in DMC or rather just transform into the dragon himself, or wreathes himself in a fiery aura and imbues his attacks with fire (hope you get the idea). I would also like to see how he would use yamato and sparda, I want new moves, not reused animations of dante and vergil.
#5syctheweilderPosted 10/9/2013 1:15:36 AM
I don't see the advantages of an open world structure for a game like this.

The level layouts in Devil May Cry work because the player is given a more or less set path to traverse and enemies are placed accordingly, a la classic Castlevania.

If we go full GTA and drop Dante in cuhrayzee city, then that introduces a huge amount of variables into the mix that the level designers can't account for, and in the worst case might lead to really dumb enemy placement like in the first infamous.

Whats more is it means a huge amount of level geometry to render, which will be a threat to the game's framerate. In a fully open world space, the programmers won't be able to use any of their old camera tricks anymore since the player could be coming in from any angle in any location. They'll have no choice but to render huge segments of the level all at once to avoid pop in, or worse, the player reaching parts of the floor before the collision detection kicks in. I don't really see a way around this other than covering the city in a thick fog.

Besides, haven't we already seen the effect that stupidly huge environments can have on Devil May Cry?

In theory, we could have a central hub connected to all of the game's environments, but then we'd just have Mallet island again. But isn't that everyone's favorite setting? Why not take a moment to ponder why that is? The gothic architecture and grim horror aesthetic is an oft-cited reason, but it think it goes deeper than that.

Compared to the rest of the series' settings, Mallet Island is the one that most feels like a real place.

The castle is a sprawling structure with many rooms and corridors, annexed to a cathedral and a garden. Eventually the place really opens up and Dante wanders around a dark forest and even the sewers beneath the castle. The castle alone would have been a sizable playground for an action game of this type, but all the extra areas connected to it make mallet island feel much more complete than it would otherwise.

There is one thing that puts a damper on this somewhat however, and that's just how disconnected everything is. From the beginning, much of the island is closed off, and going from room to room is done through an immersion-crushing scene transition. Upon completing the first mission the player then sees a result screen telling them of their progress, and then is sent to another screen to view the next mission.

This makes the missions feel like a series of levels rather than objectives to complete in a castle. Very often however, consecutive missions begin and end with Dante in the same place and cutscenes are rarely used to bridge missions together. This small choice has a significant impact and instills in the player the sense that they are still free to roam about as they please, and indeed as they progress further into the game the island opens up marvelously.

Imagine then, how huge and whole it would feel if we were to do away with the results screens and screen transitions, it would go a long way towards making the game's world feel even more like a world and less like a series of segmented screens.

After playing the original Jak and Daxter, I'm convinced that we're at a point where we can have far reaching fully featured environments that aren't segmented by loading screens and maintain a crisp framerate, and after playing revengeance I know we can have results screens that don't need a cutaway. throw in the realtime menus from deadspace for the divinity statues and you're golden.
#6Ether101Posted 10/9/2013 1:16:59 AM
I've made my self clear on the things I would do with the DMC license.

But what the hell.

I have four ideas for a DMC game. All four of them are related and two of them would be remakes.

One of them is a spoof of all the crap surrounding this game with the tag line "The prequel to the prequel of the prequel." noting that it takes place before the DMC3 manga and would revolve around the band Dante is in. One of the biggest things to take into account that the game would have the initials DMC but the name would be different to mark it as part series and as a spine off that differs in many ways. It would also tie into the origins of Nero as anti-villains in the game would posses the same Devil Bringer powers and might be a relative of his. The different members of the band would all be playable and have different themes to their design and fighting and there would be plenty of shout outs to different DMC media as part of the game. I would want to put both bars seen in first novel and DMC3 game and manga as well as .45 Caliber Works that would work as the shops of the game. I use this as a way to get side characters from the novels and anime into the game and actually tie them into the workings of the series. I also would want to work in little unlockable episodes that would touch upon what different characters form the series are doing at this point.

My second idea would to be a remake of DMC4 that would have everything the game needed as well as something extra. I would add missions for Dante, Trish and Lady and completely rework Nero's so that they fit with the new ones. I'd might even try to throw in another character to play as along with a Nero Angelo 'spirit' fight for Dante as he's leaving the Order's HQ in the same place that Nero and Credo fought just because it would be tie that bit of symbolism a little bit more.

My third idea is a basically a sequel to my first but set after DMC4 and would lead into DMC2 indirectly. The premise of the game would be exploring who and possibly what Eva really was. It would start with somebody making the poor life decision of kidnapping Trish and Dante and Co. setting off to save the badguys form their horrible fate and would transgress into the the myths and truths about Sparda and Eva.

The last idea is a remake of DMC2 with an actual story and more of everything.

I would introducing a bunch of other playable characters that are Dante's family, they'd literately form a five man band him. I know I would try to get as many playable characters as I could into the game as possible. I'd even go so far as to have unlockable ones follow the Ryu'n'Ken way of things. Like how Jeane was a mortified Bayonetta.

I'd reintroduce both prominent and background characters characters from the manga, anime and novels. I think I'd go in a more Metroidvania rout even if I didn't divert from the mission style of the series. So character's like Enzo and Morrison would be the primary info and side/mission givers where as Nell Goldstein would be the Rodin of the game providing extra weapons besides the ones found during normal game play as well as making new ones and modifying existing ones.

I'd also try to fit in as much of the ideas people like from Bayonetta into the DMC formula instead of just turning it into a Bayonetta clone.

I also have this one idea for a boss fight were the main them is confusion and you control both fighters.
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#7SKEWER_007Posted 10/9/2013 1:37:23 AM
DMANSLAND posted...
For combat, as clunky as it may sound, weapon wheel. You can order them however you'd like though so simple tapping the button cycles to the next and so forth while holding it brings out the weapon wheel.

All weapons, all times. Nothing is worse than choosing between a lot of amazing weapons and being able to only carry 2.


Funny, I mentioned the exact same thing in a previous topic. However, even I consider that clunky since you would have to "pause the game" every now and then to do stylish combos, taking out a lot of fluidity.

Psychochild came up with this idea of using weapon sets which are switchable like DMC1's quick alastor/ifrit switch. say basically, you had rebellion, beowulf, E&I, and Pandora as one set, and A&R, lucifer, shotgun and spiral as the other set. while comboing, you can press R3 or something and switch between the two sets. Hell, maybe we can even have four weapon sets.

Also agree with Dullahan's second point about optional double tap inputs. DMAN's training point (although the training room should be improved so that you can chose your enemies and whether you want them to be moving/attacking or not) and nostalgia's more playable characters points.

Also, Nero should have 3 weapons, the Red Queen, Yamato and the Devil bringer as a gauntlet style weapon. In addition to that, he should be able to grab weapons from defeated enemies and use them to attack others, like how he attacks the scarecrows in the opening of DMC4.
#8largerockPosted 10/9/2013 2:17:42 AM
First and foremost DODGE OFFSETTING from Bayonetta/MGR. It is an amazing mechanic and It'd be there as an option so if you don't want it you can have it off.

Second, Taunt Offsetting, this is an Idea I made inspired by Dodge Offsetting. (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/605600-dmc-devil-may-cry/66353070)

Last, as DMANSLAND said, a weapon wheel. You could do it like, in the field if you hold the weapon switching button then the weapon wheel'd come up and you could set if you want to switch between two or three weapons out of all the weapons you have available in the wheel. That way, you have your entire arsenal at hand.

Also, this is something personal but I'd like the Style bar to hold some effect to the gameplay depending on how high you go. Nothing major just, a bit of a color switch on your weapon trails. That's all I ask for.
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#9DullahansXMark(Topic Creator)Posted 10/9/2013 2:57:11 AM(edited)
syctheweilder posted...
The level layouts in Devil May Cry work because the player is given a more or less set path to traverse and enemies are placed accordingly, a la classic Castlevania.


Assassin's Creed games are open world and yet have some pretty awesome "level design". Tons of missions in just one city, where every mission feels like the level was built around it, not the other way around. It did this a lot, and it was damned impressive.

If it was handled intelligently, enemy placement in an open world DMC would work out fine.

(and yes, I know Assassin's Creed isn't viewed too favorably by the non-mainstream groups, but they have done quite a bit right in the past, this being a notable example.)

Edit: ah, can't believe I forgot this. Even though the game isn't out yet (so I guess we can't fairly judge it until it does), Metal Gear Solid V's transition to open world only seems to help it, not hinder it. Kojima's taking necessary care with the formula to ensure that it all blends together well. (So there's a non-mainstream example :P)

Whats more is it means a huge amount of level geometry to render, which will be a threat to the game's framerate. In a fully open world space, the programmers won't be able to use any of their old camera tricks anymore since the player could be coming in from any angle in any location. They'll have no choice but to render huge segments of the level all at once to avoid pop in, or worse, the player reaching parts of the floor before the collision detection kicks in. I don't really see a way around this other than covering the city in a thick fog.


So it'd have to be next-gen, big deal. If the new systems couldn't handle something like this at all, I don't know what we'd be forking out $400 for.

Besides, haven't we already seen the effect that stupidly huge environments can have on Devil May Cry?


You might have to refresh me on that one. Unless you're talking about DmC.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that yes, particularly large, open environments are rather stupid for an action game like this. So... complicate areas a bit. Only the main streets have to be particularly large and expansive, and you could easily just DRIVE (no, not the skill :P**) by enemy encounters there. Once you got to a mission location, you could complicate the environments a bit to make them feel more condensed. Like I said above, it's all a matter of how it gets done. If it's done poorly, then yes, everything you just said would be a problem. But if done right, it'd be great.

As for what the point of it being open world is: it'd really help immerse you in the world of Devil May Cry, which I think could be a fun experience in a lot of ways, from seeing just how much the demon carnage affects human beings, to what Dante even DOES in his free time.


**Which accidentally makes me think of something else. I HATE how long Drive (DMC3) and Round Trip (DMC4) take to charge. Can we PLEASE do it like DMC1 and (friggin' hell!) DmC, where you just hold the button for a brief second, just long enough for the game to register that you are, in fact, holding the button, and nothing more? And better yet, just make them automatically activate once charged like they do in those two games. While playing the DmC demo I never once accidentally activated Drive, and in DMC1 I never accidentally used Round Trip. Yet if I ever needed to use either, I didn't have to hold and immobilize an entire button for 5 seconds in a series where enemies can sometimes get rather vicious.
#10DullahansXMark(Topic Creator)Posted 10/9/2013 2:54:53 AM
NostalgiaRules posted...
-I'd make Lady and Trish playable characters. Not just re-skins of Dante. They'd have completely separate move sets and fighting styles. They'd also have separate campaigns from each other and 15 missions each.

-Every weapon Dante has ever collected throughout the DMC series (save for DMC 2) would be available to use.

-New and final mission for Dante: Defeat Mundus once and for all and revive Vergil. (we didn't actually see Vergil die)

-Open world roaming like you said.

-Bring Nero back and give him more weapons for goodness sakes.

-Once Dante saves Vergil and beats the game, Vergil is now available to play.


That's all I can think of for now.


I could get behind this completely. Although I'd very much like the submachine guns from DMC2 to return as well :P

Dante, Trish, Lady, Nero, and Vergil... that'd be a hell of a cast. And since everyone there except Lady has already been playable, they'd only really have to focus on Lady while making adjustments and improvements to the other characters (though Trish would need a bit of reworking considering she was playable in DMC2 and not a game that had styles. In other words, she'd need a special mechanic to set her apart from the others, like how Dante has Styles and Nero has Exceed.)

Some "improvements" I'd make across the board:

-give Dante some new weapons. I can't think of another way to really improve his gameplay styles beyond what I listed in the opening post

-give Nero some weapons too, as you mentioned. D-pad weapon switching would work fine for him. Give him some sort of unique spin on Exceed for every weapon, too. (Just don't literally put Exceed on every weapon :P)

-give Trish some sort of unique gimmick or other so she doesn't feel bland in comparison to the others

-give Lady a... playable character status XD

-make Vergil's Yamato not feel so sluggish! His attacks have so much delay, it's mind-numbing! His Aerial Rave is basically the only move worth using with Yamato, because Force Edge just does everything else so much better! I can see a nerf for his Summoned Swords, though. Those things basically trivialized DMC3. His Rapid Slash needs to go THROUGH the enemy, too. None of that "rubbing up against them" nonsense.

... I think that'd do XD (I'm too tired right now to think of anything more specific than what I mentioned)