I think I sorta understand the "nowhere to go" thing now

#1DullahansXMarkPosted 7/30/2014 2:12:21 PM
I have a feeling that they didn't mean that they didn't know where to take the story, per se. I think it's that they didn't know where to take Dante.

I mean, first of all, I know. DMC isn't a story-driven series. Still, I think that aspect does matter a little to its creators and developers. In fact, Kamiya's intention was for DMC2 to not even use Dante anymore, and instead use his descendants for future installments. His regrets about being unable to protect his family were resolved. His character developed. He moved on.

In DMC3, we were taken back in time to when Dante had a chance to protect Vergil from his own foolishness and failed. But along the way he learned the weight of what it meant to be his father's son and protector of mankind. Again, his character developed.

In DMC4... he didn't really develop at all. In a way, he really couldn't develop at all. So what did they do? They made a new character (sorta in the vein of Kamiya's intention, but... well, wrong brother XD). And that character developed quite a bit throughout the course of the game.

Problem is, people didn't really like that character. In fact, there's actually a trend in this series where a majority of people don't really like the obligatory new character that they HAVE to play as to beat the game. Not many people liked Lucia all that much (I know I didn't), not many people liked Nero all that much (I actually did, personally), and almost nobody likes Donte all that much (I can safely say I'm one of them). Although, that last one is getting a little ahead of my point.

So, if they're now hesitant to use another character besides Dante, and Dante's been established to be capable of roflstomping basically everything in existence... where DO they go? I know Dante rarely ever took ANY threat seriously, but that mostly made the ones he DID take seriously that much more menacing. Threats like Nelo Angelo, Vergil same guy, I know, Arkham, Mundus... Dante took them seriously, and so did we. In DMC4, Dante didn't take ANY threat seriously, but Nero did. He subbed into a role that Dante couldn't take anymore. But if only Dante were allowed to be in DMC5, which threats would we and Dante take seriously? Probably none of them.

I know most DMC fans don't take the plot very seriously, but I think Itsuno's team, in its own wacky way, did. And when the fans want you to use the main character, and no one else but the main character, and you can't use only the main character... what do you do?

I'm not saying this reboot (or any reboot) was the right choice, but I think I understand what the problem was now.

Or maybe I'm too hungry to think straight. I'll let you guys decide.
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#2Psychochild27Posted 7/30/2014 3:02:27 PM(edited)
Double down on Nero and bring him to parity in combo/movement options to DMC4 Dante at least. Mechanically his foundation is rad with Exceed having lots of potential and his core movement/Red Queen abilities feeling largely great. He's also the closest gameplay parallel to DmC Dante; to remove him would alienate DmC fans who enjoyed DmC's combat as DMC4 Dante is a whole other beast than Dino.

Story's whatever. All you have to do is tease Vergil and the dolts will come pouring in to endure whatever they need to see him again. Seeing as Vergil's so clearly tied to Nero it's a non-issue.

/then slap DMC3 Corrupt Vergil with combo branches and DmC's Summon Sword Pull mechanics as a throwaway unlockable like SOTN Richter, you're golden.
#3ZeroX91Posted 7/30/2014 5:21:33 PM
I really don't get the Vergil love....Vageta and Sesshomaru are literally the exact same character but more interesting.
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#4Psychochild27Posted 7/30/2014 7:00:49 PM(edited)
ZeroX91 posted...
I really don't get the Vergil love....Vageta and Sesshomaru are literally the exact same character but more interesting.


Man, I can't even begin to understand the love he gets. From a gameplay perspective Summoned Swords are wonderful and give him a lot of mileage on how to keep his juggles interesting, he has some cool looking taunts and he has some of the most elegant attack animations in the series (Rising Sun is SO GOOD). That said, he never felt that great to play and he has quite a few issues he shares with Nero; they're both underdeveloped characters with rather one-note style actions (Though Nero's Buster and Hold gives more utility beyond a zoning/positioning tool than Darkslayer) and an unfortunately limited ground game compared to Dante.

Unlike Nero though who simply has a much better realized toolkit and gameplay hooks to build off of moving forward, I can't really imagine a way to grow Vergil significantly that isn't just throwing more weapons at him or stealing more systems from Dante outright short of a drastic gameplay overhaul (Nor can Capcom going by his DmC iteration).

/Vergil's pretty incredible as a full-fledged fighting game character in Marvel though. Easily one of the best source game-to-fighter translations on the roster.
#5SBK91Posted 7/30/2014 7:18:19 PM(edited)
Double down on Nero and bring him to parity in combo/movement options to DMC4 Dante at least.

Do you want to kill the franchise for good? Dante is tops. You yourself have admitted this multiple times (even for his bastardized DMC4 incarnation).

Mechanically his foundation is rad

Mechanically he's half tremendous resource sink for little payoff and the other half is lets drive enemy design into the f****** ground.

He's also the closest gameplay parallel to DmC Dante;

Who is terrible.

to remove him would alienate DmC fans who enjoyed DmC's combat

Who are virtually nonexistent.

That said, he never felt that great to play

Too simple and powerful?

That said, he never felt that great to play and he has quite a few issues he shares with Nero;

Except he didn't compromise an entry and is vastly more competent.

Unlike Nero though who simply has a much better realized toolkit

Summoned Swords, Aerial Rave, Starfall, Judgement Cut, mobility that isn't as contextual and a ground game that isn't abhorrent would like to have a word with you.

gameplay hooks to build off of moving forward

Like not needing to dumb down the campaign to cater to his inferior tools?

I can't really imagine a way to grow Vergil significantly that isn't just throwing more weapons at him

Like a proper sequel should? What's wrong with this?

or stealing more systems from Dante

The proper character? Who'd want to play a variant of him? It'd only take significantly less resources to implement for a superior gameplay experience.
#6FloydMoneyMayPosted 7/30/2014 8:05:39 PM
SBK91 posted...
Double down on Nero and bring him to parity in combo/movement options to DMC4 Dante at least.

Do you want to kill the franchise for good? Dante is tops. You yourself have admitted this multiple times (even for his bastardized DMC4 incarnation).

Mechanically his foundation is rad

Mechanically he's half tremendous resource sink for little payoff and the other half is lets drive enemy design into the f****** ground.

He's also the closest gameplay parallel to DmC Dante;

Who is terrible.

to remove him would alienate DmC fans who enjoyed DmC's combat

Who are virtually nonexistent.

That said, he never felt that great to play

Too simple and powerful?

That said, he never felt that great to play and he has quite a few issues he shares with Nero;

Except he didn't compromise an entry and is vastly more competent.

Unlike Nero though who simply has a much better realized toolkit

Summoned Swords, Aerial Rave, Starfall, Judgement Cut, mobility that isn't as contextual and a ground game that isn't abhorrent would like to have a word with you.

gameplay hooks to build off of moving forward

Like not needing to dumb down the campaign to cater to his inferior tools?

I can't really imagine a way to grow Vergil significantly that isn't just throwing more weapons at him

Like a proper sequel should? What's wrong with this?

or stealing more systems from Dante

The proper character? Who'd want to play a variant of him? It'd only take significantly less resources to implement for a superior gameplay experience.


Excellent points made by SBK as usual.
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#7SiLVeR_420Posted 7/30/2014 11:53:33 PM
ZeroX91 posted...
I really don't get the Vergil love....Vageta and Sesshomaru are literally the exact same character but more interesting.


F--- Inuyasha but Sesshomaru and Ninja Girl with that little fox thing that transforms were pretty cool.
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#8smithkakarotPosted 7/31/2014 12:11:14 AM
SiLVeR_420 posted...
ZeroX91 posted...
I really don't get the Vergil love....Vageta and Sesshomaru are literally the exact same character but more interesting.


F--- Inuyasha but Sesshomaru and Ninja Girl with that little fox thing that transforms were pretty cool.


You mean Sango? I don't really care about Inuyasha that much, but I think that's actually a cat...
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#9Psychochild27Posted 7/31/2014 12:50:56 AM
smithkakarot posted...
SiLVeR_420 posted...
ZeroX91 posted...
I really don't get the Vergil love....Vageta and Sesshomaru are literally the exact same character but more interesting.


F--- Inuyasha but Sesshomaru and Ninja Girl with that little fox thing that transforms were pretty cool.


You mean Sango? I don't really care about Inuyasha that much, but I think that's actually a cat...


Shippo maybe? Those two were all over each other.
#10TheOriginalMaxPosted 7/31/2014 1:45:20 AM
I have never been a writer, but even I can come up with a storyline that lasts forever. First off they could establish who/what Nero is, what the details were with the "demon"(bluebro) possessing his arm, and bring Vergil back via possession or just give him a new body(clone technology). Nero could get a slight gameplay overhaul keeping his DB stuff somewhat intact while opening up multiple other possibilities, the Exceed system could be made into a Just Input system freeing up a whole button for Nero.

Dante? Why not just create a bigger and badder boss than Mundus? This boss could be "unkillable" in the sense that it needs to be sealed because it's something that plain can't be killed(like Despair Embodied, but something different) because it's essential to humanity. Sparda could come back for one last hurrah, making Dante grow and evolve both character-wise and gameplay wise. Hell, he might experience that with just Vergil's return. Then there's always the option of offspring giving continuity... DantErgil and Nero could all have offspring with their respective partners, new characters and "demonic families" could be introduced as allies, possibly even enemies(DantErgil seriously being the only half human half demons? Really?), the big bad wol--boss could have offspring as well who could first be an ally and then turn bad and take the boss' place as "whatever embodied". Also: Sparda prequel? The prequel opens up a ridiculous amount of doors for creativity. Just return to the old art style, no more Hipster may Cry pls.

Seriously, this is just off the top of my head, and I'm definitely no "expert"; what I mean is that it's not that difficult to come up with at least something which I, for instance, could see working. If Capcom are really having such a hard time making up s*** for DMC, then maybe they need to look for outside inspiration? Key-word: Inspiration. Not "make the whole game into crap". And no more imaginary target audiences. Capcom needs to grow up and stop trying to dress up like the "cool kids".
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