Would anyone be willing to settle for a compromise of both gameplay styles?

#41ZeeDoggePosted 1/30/2013 12:51:41 PM
DetBeauregard posted...
ZeeDogge posted...
No, it literally is just linear with backtracking. Especially grating in repeated playthroughs


Backtracking and linearity cannot co-exist.


I think you would mean sandbox and linear, but metroidvania is still an item/door sequence. This is like saying searching for keycards is non linearity
#42ZeeDoggePosted 1/30/2013 12:53:50 PM
Dark_Epathy posted...
I just want something like Revelations with fewer weapons and no campaign switching. : P

I don't think RE6 handled the "compromise" very well. I don't think anyone wanted bite-sized horror here and bite-sized action there. The two can be mixed together and made exquisite.


ITT: Less options makes games better

Let's recap

The best games are
-Padded in length
-Have fewer options
-Are short
#43Dark_EpathyPosted 1/30/2013 1:02:49 PM
No, no, no. That's not what I meant.

I love something like RE4 because it didn't really have backtracking at all. It kept you going, but it gave you big, open environments you could explore, too. We all want to just explore stuff. That's what lends the atmosphere a lot of creepiness and tension. You don't know where you're going, and you're just checking a place out, door by door.

But it doesn't need to be particularly protracted like in the older games, either. You shouldn't have to find a key to unlock a chest to find a gem to insert into a statue to find a crank to plug in and then open a gate and then find yet another key that you have to examine and turn around to find a key inside of it and then use that key to open the door to progress.

That's dumb.

But a little exploration at least feels more involving than going down a linear corridor shooting enemies.

As for there being fewer weapons, what I mean is that a scarcity of weapons and ammo make fighting difficult and tense. I don't want shootouts so much as formidable monsters that are difficult. With fewer weapons, I have to think more about how and where to use what.

Basically, I don't like mindless fetching or backtracking. But I do like exploration. : )
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~@_@~
Why are you people so hung up on what's canon or not? - freakazaa
#44ZeeDoggePosted 1/30/2013 1:10:04 PM
Dark_Epathy posted...
No, no, no. That's not what I meant.

I love something like RE4 because it didn't really have backtracking at all. It kept you going, but it gave you big, open environments you could explore, too. We all want to just explore stuff. That's what lends the atmosphere a lot of creepiness and tension. You don't know where you're going, and you're just checking a place out, door by door.

But it doesn't need to be particularly protracted like in the older games, either. You shouldn't have to find a key to unlock a chest to find a gem to insert into a statue to find a crank to plug in and then open a gate and then find yet another key that you have to examine and turn around to find a key inside of it and then use that key to open the door to progress.

That's dumb.

But a little exploration at least feels more involving than going down a linear corridor shooting enemies.

As for there being fewer weapons, what I mean is that a scarcity of weapons and ammo make fighting difficult and tense. I don't want shootouts so much as formidable monsters that are difficult. With fewer weapons, I have to think more about how and where to use what.

Basically, I don't like mindless fetching or backtracking. But I do like exploration. : )


RE6 did have some open areas mixed with closed ones. For example, taking the AA guns out, getting the data chips, the medallions, the graveyard, etc. However, if less ammo you want, you should really play on Pro or No Hope >.>
#45edward18Posted 1/30/2013 1:27:17 PM


ITT: We want 60$ 1 hour games with 3 hours of backtracking


If it's that good I'd pay for it, but why you ever want a game to be 60 dollars?

No, it literally is just linear with backtracking. Especially grating in repeated playthroughs

Or fun as hell for those that have different opinions than you.

I love something like RE4 because it didn't really have backtracking at all.

That's one of the reasons I disliked it so much.

We all want to just explore stuff. That's what lends the atmosphere a lot of creepiness and tension. You don't know where you're going, and you're just checking a place out, door by door.

And...that's how ANY game is the first time you play it...

But it doesn't need to be particularly protracted like in the older games, either.

Yeah it kinda does...

You shouldn't have to find a key to unlock a chest to find a gem to insert into a statue to find a crank to plug in and then open a gate and then find yet another key that you have to examine and turn around to find a key inside of it and then use that key to open the door to progress.

...yes you should. That's how the main series is supposed to play...

That's dumb.

Or just not the kind of game you like.

But a little exploration at least feels more involving than going down a linear corridor shooting enemies.

All the games have exploration.

Basically, I don't like mindless fetching or backtracking. But I do like exploration. : )

And those should all be what the main games have.
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Before you die you see the Tails Doll---Backdrop Observer of the Metroid: Other M board
Apparently Edward: Wise Old Sage of Korodai
#46ZeeDoggePosted 1/30/2013 1:31:32 PM
edward18 posted...


ITT: We want 60$ 1 hour games with 3 hours of backtracking


If it's that good I'd pay for it, but why you ever want a game to be 60 dollars?

No, it literally is just linear with backtracking. Especially grating in repeated playthroughs

Or fun as hell for those that have different opinions than you.

I love something like RE4 because it didn't really have backtracking at all.

That's one of the reasons I disliked it so much.

We all want to just explore stuff. That's what lends the atmosphere a lot of creepiness and tension. You don't know where you're going, and you're just checking a place out, door by door.

And...that's how ANY game is the first time you play it...

But it doesn't need to be particularly protracted like in the older games, either.

Yeah it kinda does...

You shouldn't have to find a key to unlock a chest to find a gem to insert into a statue to find a crank to plug in and then open a gate and then find yet another key that you have to examine and turn around to find a key inside of it and then use that key to open the door to progress.

...yes you should. That's how the main series is supposed to play...

That's dumb.

Or just not the kind of game you like.

But a little exploration at least feels more involving than going down a linear corridor shooting enemies.

All the games have exploration.

Basically, I don't like mindless fetching or backtracking. But I do like exploration. : )

And those should all be what the main games have.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B19HEUmnqDk
#47Dark_EpathyPosted 1/30/2013 1:42:30 PM
Okay, so if I'm reading this right, anything with the name "Resident Evil" has to have protracted item fetching? Regardless of the fact that it's very much an artificial means to pad game length? Regardless of the fact that the general design decision is now considered archaic?

I like exploration because it adds a level of immersion to a game. It draws you into the environment. But to go around picking up arbitrary keys and items? That's transparent busywork. And then to add in inventory constraints that make you run around aimlessly even more?

One or two keys is enough. Sufficient to allow you to explore an area and enjoy it. But there needs to be a limit.

Any game involves exploration on your first run, you're right. Obviously subsequent runs will be faster since you know where to go. But that's not a great justification for constant fetch quests. I'd rather have meaningful content, and, try as I might, I see nothing meaningful about collecting keys.
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~@_@~
Why are you people so hung up on what's canon or not? - freakazaa
#48edward18Posted 1/30/2013 1:48:42 PM
Okay, so if I'm reading this right, anything with the name "Resident Evil" has to have protracted item fetching? Regardless of the fact that it's very much an artificial means to pad game length? Regardless of the fact that the general design decision is now considered archaic?

Yes. Take that out of Metroid and fans of that are gonna be ****ed

But to go around picking up arbitrary keys and items? That's transparent busywork.

And it's how they should play.

And then to add in inventory constraints that make you run around aimlessly even more?

If they want.

One or two keys is enough. Sufficient to allow you to explore an area and enjoy it. But there needs to be a limit.

There always has been.

Any game involves exploration on your first run, you're right. Obviously subsequent runs will be faster since you know where to go. But that's not a great justification for constant fetch quests.

The justification is that's how previous games played.

I'd rather have meaningful content, and, try as I might, I see nothing meaningful about collecting keys.

I do. Backtracking makes the area that the game takes place in more memorable.
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Before you die you see the Tails Doll---Backdrop Observer of the Metroid: Other M board
Apparently Edward: Wise Old Sage of Korodai
#49Dark_EpathyPosted 1/30/2013 2:37:47 PM
Yes. Take that out of Metroid and fans of that are gonna be ****ed.

Metroid prides itself on versatility, though. Items can generally be found in any order a player chooses--whole sections of the map can even be ignored. That's why more recent entries have come under fire for being more linear.

But are they bad? They're just different, and they still capture the feel of the series.

And it's how they should play.

Why? Who determines that? Because the first game set a precedent and now all subsequent entries have to follow that?

That's extremely stifling. What's more important in Resident Evil--the mechanics or the feeling? Revelations does backtracking, but is it a bad RE because it uses the over-the-shoulder camera?

There always has been.

A logical limit. Finding seven keys is preferable when one or two could suffice?

The justification is that's how previous games played.

But what if that style of play is artificial? What if time is revealing it to be unsustainable?

I do. Backtracking makes the area that the game takes place in more memorable.

Memorable because you have to find thirteen different keys and items in it? : P

We can do better than constraints and artificial mechanics. Things like atmosphere, characters, and enemies should make things memorable, in my opinion. Not busywork.

Out of curiosity, have you played the earliest Silent Hill games? You'd enjoy them.
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~@_@~
Why are you people so hung up on what's canon or not? - freakazaa
#50edward18Posted 1/30/2013 2:44:28 PM

Metroid prides itself on versatility, though. Items can generally be found in any order a player chooses--whole sections of the map can even be ignored. That's why more recent entries have come under fire for being more linear.


...no, there's usually been a pretty clear path of what to do once you investigate with only so many options of where you can go at a time.

Why?

So that when you pick up a later game you know the kind of game you're playing.

Who determines that?

In this case me since I'm stating my opinion.

Because the first game set a precedent and now all subsequent entries have to follow that?

Pretty much.

That's extremely stifling. What's more important in Resident Evil--the mechanics or the feeling?

Both. Mechanics should always be the same.

Revelations does backtracking, but is it a bad RE because it uses the over-the-shoulder camera?

I haven't played it so I can't say for sure but it sure looks a hell of a lot more like it deserves to be called RE than 4 or 5 from what I've seen.

A logical limit. Finding seven keys is preferable when one or two could suffice?

I don't remember ever having seven keys at a time.

But what if that style of play is artificial? What if time is revealing it to be unsustainable?

What are you talking about?

Memorable because you have to find thirteen different keys and items in it? : P

That's part of it. I'll always remember the halls of the Arklay Mountain Research Facility, those of the RPD, Rockfort Island, the Antartic Facility. I'll never have that kind of impression from nameless Spanish Town and Kijuju.

We can do better than constraints and artificial mechanics.

What are constraints and artificial mechanics?

Things like atmosphere, characters, and enemies should make things memorable, in my opinion. Not busywork.

Game should still play the same.

Out of curiosity, have you played the earliest Silent Hill games? You'd enjoy them.

Silent Hill 1's the one I've played. Pretty nice game. 2 looks a bit...stupid to me storywise but it still keeps the gameplay and 3 is thankfully a return storywise to what 1 started.
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Before you die you see the Tails Doll---Backdrop Observer of the Metroid: Other M board
Apparently Edward: Wise Old Sage of Korodai