how do you counter jump diving zombies and dogs?

#11DigimonTrainerPosted 3/20/2013 8:34:21 AM
Thanks DS. So for Bloodshots, it's as they're mid-air (or if you're close enough, right after they leave the ground), and with leapers, it's right after the feet leave the ground (or right before the feet leave the ground?).
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#12DanielSpace79Posted 3/20/2013 8:40:30 AM
Yes pretty much- With bloodshots, they have to be in the air to counter and you have a pretty generous window of time to get him. For leaping zombies, the timing is a lot stricter and you have to wait until they have JUST gotten off the floor.
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#13SemiotequePosted 3/20/2013 3:20:34 PM
Just to reinforce what's being said about the difference between Bloodshots and jumpers/dogs: what you are countering when you counter a Bloodshot's jump is the grab that he will perform if his jump connects with you. This is why you can counter a Bloodshot from the moment they jump all the way until they land; if it's possible for them to grab you, it's possible for you to counter them.

This is why Daniel is saying Bloodshots and jumpers/dogs are opposites. You're not countering the aerial attack when you counter a jumper/dog. It's more like you are countering the jump itself.

Why did Capcom do it this way? Who knows. My theory is that it has to do with the animation for countering jumpers and dogs being so good for hitting multiple enemies at once. I think Capcom knew that was an interesting thing and they kept it like that. I think they made Bloodshot counters a special animation so that you could see the crushing of the "heart", and also to make sure you have to deal with them one at a time.
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#14AquamarinPosted 3/20/2013 6:10:11 PM
You can also counter a Bloodshot's jump by standing next to him while he's doing his animation still on the ground. If I recall correctly, his animation consists of his 'gets ready for jump' sound, bending of the knees twice, then lift off. As soon as he completes his second bending of the knees, he gets ready to jump. You can counter during that second bending without him ever leaving the ground. This is the only safe way to counter Bloodshots when there is a height difference.
Also, when you counter him during the jump, you don't have to stand in his flight path. You can just side step, wait till it's right next to you and press counter. Imagine the Bloodshot having a huge sphere around it. When you counter, you'll succeed as long as you stand inside that sphere without touching the Bloodshot. If you fail in the timing, no big deal, it just flies past you.

Technically, I think the analogy between a zombie attack (grab/slap/puke) and a dog jump is more accurate than a dog jump and zombie dive. Finish your counter animation before the attack animation hits you and you win. The only thing of a zombie dive that is count as an attacking motion is the split second between the moment 1 foot still touches the ground and the few centimeters it's in the air. During the dive after the counter window, it's count as movement, just like walking and running. In a way, you can see it as a flying version of the move where a zombie outstretches both arms and walks around (classic zombie gesture in movies).
#15icantseePosted 3/20/2013 9:38:36 PM
Yeah. For Bloodshots its like you could be in the next galaxy, and you would still get the counter prompt when they leap.

Also, does anyone see differences in dog attack patterns between solo and duo? In solo, I can sort of develop a good flow based on how they behave, but in duo they seem to behave a little differently which throws off my timing and anticipation.
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#16nina_chanPosted 3/21/2013 3:53:53 AM
Easiest non-risky way to counter dogs is to gain some distance from it (about 20 feet or more), wait for it to bark and run towards you, then run/sprint towards it. Press R1 right before you make contact with it. The margin for error is really small, but it's guaranteed to attack you and you're guaranteed to make a successful counter. The most important part in making this work is to make sure that you and the dog are running towards each other in a straight line, otherwise it might not attack you. If you're dealing with a pack of dogs, there's also a pretty good chance a few of them will run towards you at the same time, and the counter will kill all of them simultaneously.
#17DanielSpace79Posted 3/21/2013 1:19:04 PM
Aqua- few things, it was actually supposed to be 'peeling'- but 'beelining' would've been good to! Semiteque is right in saying that the dog counter is one of the only ones that can be an 'instant'. After getting jumped by a dog and getting the QTE, if you are in range and standing still, the dog will immediately attack you again, giving you an oppertunity to do a counter without any predetermined animation.

Regarding analogies- I actually think leaping zombies and dogs remains appropriate as comparisons since you are countering an attack that involves an enemy leaping from the ground to jump you and have different retributions if you whiff- (if hit with a weapon, punch, or acid- you are put in brief lock stun. If you get hit with a leaper or zombie, you are put into a QTE scenario to break out) I'm not sure what you meant by saying 'finish the counter animation before the attack animation and you win'- I think you meant 'press the counter prompt before the attack animation and you win'-

Nina- that's actually how I taught myself at first- the only problem comes in the game of roulette with an impending dog pack- as one starts beelining in a group they do that evil prank in which one of them will just stop or veer. Jerks
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#18LansfieldPosted 3/22/2013 12:51:01 AM
I counter them by chance. They are so hard to time.
#19AquamarinPosted 3/23/2013 9:54:05 PM
DanielSpace79 posted...
Semiteque is right in saying that the dog counter is one of the only ones that can be an 'instant'. After getting jumped by a dog and getting the QTE, if you are in range and standing still, the dog will immediately attack you again, giving you an oppertunity to do a counter without any predetermined animation.
I now see that I misunderstood but I'm still not sure what you mean by instant counter. Instant as in you can do it without the dog having shown any sign of attacking? like you can do counter right from the start, not having to wait until the move becomes counterable from a certain moment on?
Regarding analogies- I actually think leaping zombies and dogs remains appropriate as comparisons since you are countering an attack that involves an enemy leaping from the ground to jump you and have different retributions if you whiff- (if hit with a weapon, punch, or acid- you are put in brief lock stun. If you get hit with a leaper or zombie, you are put into a QTE scenario to break out) I'm not sure what you meant by saying 'finish the counter animation before the attack animation and you win'- I think you meant 'press the counter prompt before the attack animation and you win'-
If you put it that way, then you have valid points; both zombie dive and dog jump are jumping movements and end up in a QTE as opposed to a stun lock. Why I thought a non-dive zombie attack was more like a dog jump is because I looked at the the counter conditions (i.e when and where can I counter it?); a diving zombie can only be countered during the beginning, whereas the other attacks can be countered during the whole move but before it hits you. Perhaps in this sense, a zombie dive shows more similarities with zombie puke, except that one leads to a QTE and the other to a stun lock.
I do think a dog jump is technically, looking purely at the counter conditions, more like a Bloodshot jump. Which brings me to your question: I did not mean "press the counter button" because that's not correct in my opinion. I'm sure you know you can be too late in countering a dog jump. You'll hear that chime but get grabbed anyway. That's not lag as it can happen when you play solo. That's why I think the counter window for the dog jump is not like a zombie dive only at the start but goes beyond that, perhaps even until the end like a Bloodshot jump. But because the Bloodshot counter is instantaneous and the dog counter needs time to do the animation (swing with rifle but for 2h weapons, weird diagonal hook for 1h weapons), you can't be too late for the Bloodshot counter whereas you can with the dog counter. But when it comes down to it, the time window for zombie dive and dog jump are both pretty short and at the beginning, so I can see why they're pretty much the same.
But whatever's the case, I realize it really matters nothing at all as no 2 moves in the game are the same. The combination of reach, damage, counter location, counter time and resulting action (QTE/stun lock/down/near death/game over) makes it all unique.
#20icantseePosted 3/24/2013 12:26:30 AM
Another thing about dog countering is the distance.

It seems easiest if they are either far from you or right next to you. When they are far, they will run to you and you can get the counter timing down like people have already described here. If they are are right next to you, they give certain signals they are about to pounce.

But if they're an intermediate distance, then the counter timing gets tricky (al least for me). They pouch like they're close, but the counter prompt just seems ........ it's just not easy.
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