Question about maximizing countering damage

#11AquamarinPosted 3/25/2013 9:38:46 PM
Hey now, as a Leon mainer, I cannot let that comment slip by :P
Everyone already covered most of it. All I want to do is provide some of my own experiences with that weak Leon :P (works for Sherry too of course)

Overhead grab: a 1h counter low kick will kill grabbers if you hit them from the front to both sides for what seems like a 180 angle. 2h will work only if you manage to hit it from the front instead of the sides. This only happens when you stand at a certain angle so that instead of the zombie swaying to your left or right and you weapon butting it to the side, it will somehow lean on you, causing you to hit it from the front. It's very strict and I can't do it consistently. It'll also work if there's an obstacle to your left or right blocking the movement.

Arm swing: 2h is kill. Can miss or only partially hit. Lots of characters can do it with 1h too. Leon and Sherry can't unless it's a very lucky kick that hits them in the head or something.

Leapers are the same as dogs, doesn't matter what weapon.

Not sure why you added a leaper (secondary crowd damage) category.
For UC, you'll need Power Counter for the same results.
#12DanielSpace79Posted 3/26/2013 5:06:19 PM
Haha- figured you would, and it's good to get the perspective, though I think it's important to note the difference on maps- I've had some success in what you are talking about (I always internally call it 'Dead Angle') on Mtd and Catacombs, but in Urban Chaos, even with the angle dead on, it will almost never one hit counter grabbers, and the 2 handed weapons will never one hit counter punchers
---
"Hey! Porky Pig! I hope you get molested!"
PSN: TheWorstType
#13SemiotequePosted 3/26/2013 11:29:30 PM
Just wanted to say a couple things about the "odd map out": Urban Chaos. The way I always understood this level to work was based on the gender of the zombie (Capcom gender bias). Out of Mtd, UC, and TC, only UC has "gendered" zombies.

A basic zombie on UC can be one of female/male, and be one of the following types: puncher/grabber/spitter/jumper/weapon. We all know weapon zombies are one-hit kills with counters. Jumpers on UC are one-hit kills, gender doesn't matter. So what we have left is male/female, puncher/grabber/spitter.

All female zombies on UC of type puncher/grabber/spitter can be one-hit killed by two handed counters and one-handed counters of sufficient strength. Male zombies on UC (punch/grab/spit) require some damage before either two-handed counters or one-handed counters can kill them.

So, if you use Default Chris as an example, a male zombie (punch/grab/spit) requires 1 to 2 rifle shots before either the rifle counter or the magnum counter will kill them. For female zombies, the rifle or the magnum will kill them in one hit.

This is just the general rule I use on UC, and the rule will change depending on the weapon/counter used. If you use Ada EX as an example, the MP-AF kills most female zombies in one hit (except maybe grabbers?), and all male zombies require 2 to 3 shots.

This does not apply to policeman, firefighter, or BSAA zombies.
---
PSN: Semioteque
#14UnfoolishPosted 3/27/2013 1:10:55 AM
The zombies in Urban Chaos have more energy. Even with Power Counter equipped most zombies don't die with one counter. Firemen for example, chuck some bullets then counter it. Same with the armored BSAA and magnum cops. Pukers seem to die easy.

Mining the Depths is zombie counter heaven, Power Counter almost guarantee one hit kills.

Catacombs similar. Latern zombies are weird, Ada and Carla benefit heavily from that without risking damage taken. I think everyone else gets burned. I remember Sherry's Stun Rod counter didn't get me burned but it could have been the angle.

Rooftop Mission, very much similar to previous two maps. Urban Chaos is indeed crazy.

I do notice some patterns with certain enemies on maps. Urban Chaos magnum cops, armored rifle shooting BSAA zombies and firemen are so ridiculous. The pouncing dogs in Mining Depths is hell. Never have puking zombies become extremely annoying in Rooftop acid shots flinging like boogers all across the screen. Leaping zombies in Catacombs that turn into Bloodshots.

I guess that is what makes each map unique. Certain zombies and critters thrive on certain maps.
#15AquamarinPosted 3/27/2013 8:32:27 AM
Dead Angle, nice I'll remember that. And yes you're right of course about Urban Chaos being a special case. The only zombies that you can 1 hit kill without Power Counter, with the right counter (1h or 2h), are those females. Actually hadn't noticed that gender thing until quite recently. I think they're about the same level as normal zombies on other maps.
#16icantsee(Topic Creator)Posted 3/27/2013 7:15:16 PM
Thanks for the tips everyone. One of my goals is getting a higher solo score on UC with default Leon. As many pointed out, he's just plain weak, but I like his CdG.

There's sort of a lot to remember, but I'll start with switching to the shotgun to counter the arm swing female zombies. I'll work on angles and stuff like that later.
---
RE5, 3DS, RE6 Mercs fan
#17UnfoolishPosted 3/27/2013 9:18:35 PM
Leon has a nice CDG especially in crowds you can get +21 seconds since the hitbox spread is large. Definitely better than Chris, Piers and Agent CDG due to slow speed and lack of range.

However, Leon lacks in counters like Sherry whereas. Chris counter is real good makes up for his slow melee.

Ada/Carla have the fastest melee all around and counter speed. She reminds me of RE5 Jill Valentine fast melees knee drop, cartwheel, neck twist, high kick but with a small hitbox.

Tier placement has Chris, Jake and Carla as top tier in Mercenaries.

I like the appeal of lower tier characters, more challenging to use, less equipped. Rewarding when successful.
#18AquamarinPosted 3/28/2013 9:45:39 PM
icantsee posted...
Leon... he's just plain weak ...
Ok now you got my attention. Very off-topic but I can give you a few hints so I'm gonna have you stop right here :P

It's true he's not popular and Unfoolish already hinted at his lower tier ranking. If you look at the 1.4M+ rankings in UC Duo, there are very very few Leons out there. I'm almost there but I'm starting to feel his limitations. He has 4 bombs but they're useless in high score games, since you will use one at most. 8 pills and his CdG are his more redeeming values. Plus he's a man so you have access to fast CdGs with the elbow. The Wing Shooter alt mode, not so useful in my opinion. Shotgun is a major plus as a combo saver and a boss killer. Master the weapon-switch and they'll fall in less than a second.

If you use Power Counter:
He doesn't have an all-in-one solution like other characters (except for Sherry) that can kill both grabbers and punchers. No, you need to switch constantly to adapt. Grabber? -> Wing Shooter. Puncher? -> Shotgun. In order to get the most time out of a zombie, you'll need to know beforehand what zombie it is. This is something you can only learn by playing lots so you'll know at what wave what type of zombie appears. If you're not sure, you'll have to use 2 bullets to soften up and then go with the 1h counter. I usually go for CdG in these cases.

Without Power Counter:
Here's where Leon hurts the most. Most zombies on UC are punchers so you'd want to go with a 2h counter. Your options are:
2 counters
1 shotgun shell partial hit -> 2h counter
2 bullets -> switch to shotgun -> 2h counter
4 bullets -> 1h counter

4 bullets ! That's not softening but half killing it. Sherry's Triple Shot has more firepower so it needs 3. Everyone else needs 1 because of their superior 1h counter (except Ada needs 2) or 1 because they have a rifle -> 2h counter.

Since you want to counter stuff, I really recommend learning the spawns and using Power Counter. Without Power Counter, I'd go for CdG only, specifically, the heatshot -> CdG.

Even further off-topic: BTW the reason he's my main is not because I'm some die hard Leon fan. It's because he's the first in the list and I kind of stuck with him.
#19icantsee(Topic Creator)Posted 3/29/2013 11:25:25 PM
Aquamarin posted...
icantsee posted...
Leon... he's just plain weak ...
Ok now you got my attention. Very off-topic but I can give you a few hints so I'm gonna have you stop right here :P


Haha! Thanks for the tips Aqua! The reason why I mentioned Leon is weak is that I remember one time one of the old, fat male zombies ...... He somehow ended up with three bullet holes plus he was incidentally hit with a flaming stick. I figured that this was enough damage for even Leon to 1h counter. But nope! It totally annoyed me.

I have experimented with a bunch of techniques, including some you mentioned like using the shotgun (from a distance) to weaken the zombies. But nothing really consistenly builds up time. I do use the headshot -> CdG quite often, but it's sort of difficult to get consistently. Sometimes I get a good rhythm, but other times I'm a split second off. Usually I rely on the dogs and leapers to get multikills to build time, along with that occassional multikill CdG.

But I think I'll have to use Power Counter like you mentioned and get to know the grabbers versus arm swingers in order to consistently build time. I pretty much know who's who early in the stage, but later when everything's frantic, it's hard to keep track.
---
RE5, 3DS, RE6 Mercs fan
#20AquamarinPosted 3/30/2013 10:48:02 AM
Yes those old guys are troublesome. There is one that spawns from the start under the bridge. I just cannot for the life of me manage to get his head off. And at kill #2, there is one that spawns from the shutters near the Mahjong parlor, always grabs you and is very aggressive compared to others who'll occasionally walk away.

I've played enough to know roughly who's a grabber or slapper but I still fail sometimes. For instance, when those cops throw their guns away, it can get hard to tell. I've been working on a table showing what spawns where at what kill number. It's taking up a lot of time and perhaps not really needed, but I've been wanting to do that for a while.