Is Center of the World ever worth it?

#21gadgaurdPosted 12/3/2012 7:51:51 PM
pichtt posted...
Mad_Cartoonist posted...
pichtt posted...
Also, the longer you stays in EXmode, the higher chance that you WILL be Assist punished (and, thus, assist break) to death. And since there is no Assist to safe yourself after that, you will be pretty much hopeless.


With the exception of Light who is essentially safe from Wall Rushes, and only requires advance Assist Tag or punishing dodge that'll hit her.


This... I can agree


Not as safe, but characters who can double dodge, or immediately through up a higher guard than most(Nightglow, for example), are noteworthy, if nothing else.
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#22pichttPosted 12/3/2012 8:06:04 PM
Nightglow is nice and all....but as soon as the attack animation finish, it is still wide open for assist punishment (not that much, but still possible.) Well, at least, it is one way to deal with Jecht Shot thing I was talking about. So, yea, it is quite a decent move.
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#23gadgaurdPosted 12/3/2012 8:30:29 PM
pichtt posted...
gadgaurd posted...
pichtt posted...
That works.... because it was against AI. That will look nasty when you fight against human player. Thus, the reason for this statement

From: YonKitoTaoshibe | #011
jeof96 posted...

competitively? NO!

Casual plays? Depends on you, otherwise, Yes.

This.



Also, the longer you stays in EXmode, the higher chance that you WILL be Assist punished (and, thus, assist break) to death. And since there is no Assist to safe yourself after that, you will be pretty much hopeless.


1) Wait, you're saying that I'd have a harder time using Chase on humans than AI? Because I was really just showing the great absorption you can get by regularly using it, and leaving it yo whomever to drop that on an EX build.

2) While that's definitely true, I personally try to get in a break>HP attack>Burst as soon as possible when using an EX build. But, if you're using an EX Build, ideally you'd be using the High Seraph, thus turning even an EX break into a great chance.

But, I'm more interested in your view on using Chase on humans.


You can chase without attacking and still be able absorb EXforce. Good at chase game is completely irrelevant here. Also, when I said against human, I mean smart player with assist while you are in EX will try to make you dodge, and then punish you with assist. For example, use Jecht shot and force you to dodge and punish you right there (or, well, you get hit by Jecht shot -> wall rush -> assist)


But if you actually attack in Chase, you keep generating EX Force. If you have "Always Absorb EX", you'll constantly gain time on your EX Mode. On top of that, unlike outside of Chase, you don't gain any Assist unless you land a hit. So if you're good at Chase, that's just more EX Force for you, and less Assist building for the enemy(unless they are as good or better). If you don't attack, you rum the risk of taking a hit yourself(against pretty much every character, I believe). So I would say it's pretty relevant when discussing optimal use of an EX Build. Actually, I'd say that for optimal gameplay, period, but that's just my opinion.

As for the second point, of course it's a risk. But if it pays off, it pays off well. And depending on the character you use, you can counter dodge punish with a double dodge, or an immediate block(iirc, haven't had to do any of this in months). On top of that, there are the evasion boosting abilities. There's also alternative ways to avoid the attack so you can still dodge the assist, like using Deceased Speed Boost(I am fond of this). And lastly, there's Omni Block and Jecht Block(as well as a few other things that can be used to defend or evade). And if all of this fails, you're very last resort would be UtHS, so at least it wasn't a total loss. Oh, and depending on who the EX user is playing as, the opponent really shouldn't have time to build up assist, unless they're actually hitting you(which is another problem entirely).
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#24gadgaurdPosted 12/3/2012 8:34:21 PM
pichtt posted...
Nightglow is nice and all....but as soon as the attack animation finish, it is still wide open for assist punishment (not that much, but still possible.) Well, at least, it is one way to deal with Jecht Shot thing I was talking about. So, yea, it is quite a decent move.


No, I meant use it immediately following a ground dodge. But if you just whip it out instead of dodging, I guess if you're close enough to Tidus, it will hit him, making any attempts to assist punish a pointless Assist Change(and that would be horrible if the opponent was in EX Mode).
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#25pichttPosted 12/3/2012 9:18:47 PM(edited)
gadgaurd posted...
pichtt posted...
Nightglow is nice and all....but as soon as the attack animation finish, it is still wide open for assist punishment (not that much, but still possible.) Well, at least, it is one way to deal with Jecht Shot thing I was talking about. So, yea, it is quite a decent move.


No, I meant use it immediately following a ground dodge. But if you just whip it out instead of dodging, I guess if you're close enough to Tidus, it will hit him, making any attempts to assist punish a pointless Assist Change(and that would be horrible if the opponent was in EX Mode).


Not fast enough in most case... some of the dodge animation is not invincible frame and you can't do anything during those frame aside from getting hit.


But if you actually attack in Chase, you keep generating EX Force. If you have "Always Absorb EX", you'll constantly gain time on your EX Mode. On top of that, unlike outside of Chase, you don't gain any Assist unless you land a hit. So if you're good at Chase, that's just more EX Force for you, and less Assist building for the enemy(unless they are as good or better). If you don't attack, you rum the risk of taking a hit yourself(against pretty much every character, I believe). So I would say it's pretty relevant when discussing optimal use of an EX Build. Actually, I'd say that for optimal gameplay, period, but that's just my opinion.

As for the second point, of course it's a risk. But if it pays off, it pays off well. And depending on the character you use, you can counter dodge punish with a double dodge, or an immediate block(iirc, haven't had to do any of this in months). On top of that, there are the evasion boosting abilities. There's also alternative ways to avoid the attack so you can still dodge the assist, like using Deceased Speed Boost(I am fond of this). And lastly, there's Omni Block and Jecht Block(as well as a few other things that can be used to defend or evade). And if all of this fails, you're very last resort would be UtHS, so at least it wasn't a total loss. Oh, and depending on who the EX user is playing as, the opponent really shouldn't have time to build up assist, unless they're actually hitting you(which is another problem entirely).


Don't forget, your opponent can chose NOT to continue the chase sequence and if they are smart, they won't do it while you are in EXmode. And you can't guarantee that you will be able to hit your opponent when they cancel the chase since usually all you have to do is drop down using gravity to avoid getting hit (or simply dodge away). And usually when you are in EXmode, a good human player will flee from you. And the point of staying in EX longer is not really a good idea. I get the "getting in EXmode fast" part, but not "maintaining EXmode" idea. And while I don't have anything against EXbuild (actually, I have some of my characters with EX build, too) All I want to say is......it is not worth the cost of unusable assist. Meaning, I am okay with using Close to You, but not CoW.
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#26gadgaurdPosted 12/3/2012 9:50:01 PM
For the Nightglow thing, it should work if you're using all the dodge abilities.

As for canceling Chase, that's risky. When you cancel it, your character goes through a short "righting" animation, where they're temporarily thrown off by the inertia of their stopping such "high speed"(lol) movement. This is long enough, however, for every character to be able to land an attack, assuming they have Recovery Attack equipped. This is especially bad if the opponent's attack leads into a HP Branch or Chase(horrible cycle, incoming). And yes, an opponent can run away, but the worst possible outcome of that is you getting a minimal 10% of your HP back, assuming you can't catch them. As we both know, there are a few ways to catch a fleeing opponent with Assist, especially since most opponents don't use any reverse dashes. And some characters, like Exdeath, you typically don't want to just run from. Actually, in this case, Ultimecia, Golbez, and Sephiroth are better examples.
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#27ZeoPamasterPosted 12/3/2012 10:01:54 PM
Yo man, being the center of the world ain't worth it!



Be the center of da universe! >:O
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#28pichttPosted 12/3/2012 10:09:16 PM
Yea, you can land an attack, so will they can block you.
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#29gadgaurdPosted 12/3/2012 10:43:50 PM(edited)
pichtt posted...
Yea, you can land an attack, so will they can block you.


If the attack is blockable. Since we're talking EX Mode, lots of characters can just rip through it(Gabranth, Cloud). Other characters can rip through it regardless(Jecht, Prishe), Tifa laughs at all guards, and you also run the very real risk of eating an HP attack. Or, the opponent can be an ass(like me), and wait till your guard ends to hit you before you can move.

EDIT: There are also a lot of attacks that take less time to hit than it would take to recover from canceling Chase.
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#30pichttPosted 12/3/2012 11:42:32 PM
Of course,Cloud and Gabby is different, but others with attack that can go through guard is not fast enough to hit right after chase anyway (I am not even sure if Gabby is also fast enough in that case). When you say it like that, it will go to a big loop in the end. (Fast enough? LOL I block, go though guard? LOL I dodge) It's the same thing and the major mind game of this game even outside chase, for example, like how you recover from wall rush. You can block or dodge if you predict your opponent will hit you again with fast poke, you counter with fast poke or wait for dodge if you think your opponent will hit you with slow attack. Attacker will also have a choice to predict what the other will do. If attacker think the other will block, hit with unblockable attack. If the other dodge, use dodge punish move like OK's Thunder. If the other counter attack, you block. etc.

Besides, that's not really the point here. The point I want to make here is CoW build (not EX build) is a horrible build to play competitively. For casual play? do whatever you feel like. You can do everything you said and mentioned in EXbuild + you still have assist. What you keep saying is how good EXmode is, but not a single thing you mentioned say why using CoW is good.

Oh, before I forget to mention; Yes, Nightglow thing could work if you're using all the dodge abilities AND did a precised dodge (have yellow aura surrounding you during dodge) or otherwise it still won't work. Actually, even with Precision dodge, there are still some opening frame, but it is very quick that it might work.
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