Is Center of the World ever worth it?

#31gadgaurdPosted 12/4/2012 12:42:51 AM
The point I'm making isn't particularly that CotW is amazing(though I'd never make an EX build without it). TC asked if it's ever worth using. I said yes, and gave(and am still giving) a bunch of tactics to maximize the increased absorption, and work without Assist and against them. I already answered the main question, and am giving additional advice.

As for Chase, you seem to have misunderstood me. I'm saying that there are attacks that you can activate when your opponent cancels a chase(or vice versa) that are so fast there won't even be a chance to respond, because of the cancel animation(or cancel lag, probably more appropriate). This isn't mere speculation, either. I've tested the hell outta this. For Gabranth, Dual Rend and Rupture are fast enough. Maybe Vortex of Judgement. And of course, I don't mean this will work with every character. Some simply don't benefit from EX Mode in anyway that this build and these tactics make up for no Assist(and the list of those that do is, obviously, debatable, and even in my opinion, small).

If I recall correctly, pretty much no one uses Chase. If someone who was good with the tactics I've mentioned, who had an appropriate set up, fought competitively, they could probably do some serious damage. LonelyGaruga or kewldude, for example. If someone has already done this, then forgive me, but I hear of most players(including DF members) avoiding Chase because they can't predict the moves(which you shouldn't be trying to do anyway), or because they find it boring(fair enough).

As for the Nightglow subject: You mean if someone uses Assist as SOON as you start a dodge? That's rather unlikely, wouldn't you say? And what about distance increases along with invincibility frame increase? And double dodges? Also, I'd like to remind you that there are enough ways to avoid that pincer besides the one we're discussing.
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I'm an amateur writer. I write CYOAs to practice.
#32pichttPosted 12/4/2012 2:04:15 AM(edited)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_16dwg8JME&feature=share&list=UUR5exGA-y4rqGnGqSzsg_AA

at 0:55

that kind of timing is unavoidable.


EDIT: as of other topic...

Chase: personal preference. Some like it, some don't. When I PvP, I tend to alternately change my decision (sometime I attack during chase, sometimes I don't) So it will be less predictable. And about tactic about chase you are talking about, it will work if you can fully predict the others actions (not only "Brv or HP", but "BRV or HP or cancel") That's a lot of things you have to watch out so normally people dont think it is reliable enough. Note that sometimes a good chaser will delay his decision a bit (while sometimes acting fast) so that the dodge timing will be harder. Sure, you might like it, but I am certain that it is not a 100% deal that you can count on all the times. But all in all......Personal preference.....

As of EXmode build. Let's just say, I find Pearl necklace to be a lot better than CoW.....especially for a chaser like you... I don't get what to not like about Pearl necklace when it can offer almost the same benefit with CoW (with the help of booster) while have a lot smaller penalty. Well, if you also use Genji set build (EXcore chaser) too then it could be somewhat useful, I guess. But I personally won't go that far. Thus, why I said no to CoW. (and not EXbuild)

Finally............Now that I read again....saying Center of the World as "CoW" looks dumb.... LOL

COW'S HAT!!!!!
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#33gadgaurdPosted 12/4/2012 2:13:45 AM
pichtt posted...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_16dwg8JME&feature=share&list=UUR5exGA-y4rqGnGqSzsg_AA

at 0:55

that kind of timing is unavoidable.


Ah, that's what you meant. Then I'll concede that, but in turn, point out how it could have been avoided. If he Tifa had Ground Dash equipped, she could have escaped by dashing strait towards, and under, Tidus. Or, she could have feinted through it instead of dodging(allowing you to stagger an Assist, locking it). Or, she could have simply attacked through it.

But I will definitely concede that a properly timed Assist punish will almost always land. The problem, however, is getting the bar. Whiffing can get you hit hard(as this video shows) if you're opponent is playing smart yet aggressive. Yet you say a smart player will run from an opponent in EX Mode. Ignoring the difficulty different stages will inflict upon that plan, if your opponent went EX Mode, unless you're in Cosmos Judgment, you have no Assist. You need to safely build it up while avoiding your opponents wrath. If you successfully avoid all their hits, they just healed 10% of their HP. If you decide to risk it...Well, you risk it. If you try to just whiff, how would you do that safely? If the person using EX is as good as the person who's using a standard build(or assist) this should be hard as hell. They should never let up, and they should be using a character who, because of EX Mode or normal badassery, makes defence far more difficult to maintain, such as Tifa, Gabranth, or Terra.

Note: At this point, I'm just enjoying the discussion. Have been for a while, actually.
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I'm an amateur writer. I write CYOAs to practice.
#34pichttPosted 12/4/2012 3:12:29 AM
Well, if he decided to Ground dodge or feint, I would just not be using assist, that's all. and from that position, I doubt that he could use feint effectively (sure, he can dodge the ball, but he will be wide open after that since the next attack tend to miss from that position.) And in that kind of situation, there is a chance that you would forget all the talk we have and just dodge by instinct.

Yep....getting the bar is the problem, especially after opponent went into EXmode. But that's precisely why I said it is dangerous to try maintaining EXmode since that's just like giving your opponent more time to gain assist bar, too. I didn't mean to say that people will completely flee form you, but they will take more caution, that's for sure. So, there will be no reckless dash or random attack poking at you. I am not saying it is easy to gain Assist bar that way, but I am sure it is possible. In fact, there was one time in a replay between M_C and Me that we actually did assist break (or was it EX break?) and another one with me and RockmanAL. Both of those replay are made without EXbuild, yet, we were able to have enough assist to make it happened. And I assured both M_C and RockmanAL is not a bad player or at least they are on par with me. And we weren't the type that like to camp for assist, too.

So, from that, I assumed that if both player are at the same level of playing skill, you might have to deal with one or two assists during EXmode, unless the opponent is so freaked out that he does nothing but flee. Probably more than that if you stay in EXmode longer than usual. I'd prefer being able to enter EXmode frequently more than stay longer in EX mode. That way, you get to cancel out your opponent's assist bar in the process, too.

Also note: me too. It's been a while that I actually have an on topic talk like this. It's been a poll after another lately, lol.

Note 2: in case you were wondering, Me and M_C match should be the very first PvP vid I had with Mad, and It was RockAL(OK) vs me(Jecht) vid.
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Let's move to http://w11.zetaboards.com/TheQuittingReturner/index/ dood
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#35YonKitoTaoshibePosted 12/4/2012 2:02:02 PM
EX generation and absorption from Chase is awesome (I think the values are like 70 for BRV and 90 for HP attacks), but it is risky. The safest way to do it is to wallrush the foe ASAP. That way you get the EX Force and keep the pain down to a minimum. Best with White Gem, Tenacious Attacker (a staple), Glutton (so if you take a hit the foe isn't the only one getting EX Force), and Sturm und Drang.
Center of the World isn't really necessary if you do this.
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#36gadgaurdPosted 12/4/2012 2:41:09 PM
pichtt posted...
Well, if he decided to Ground dodge or feint, I would just not be using assist, that's all. and from that position, I doubt that he could use feint effectively (sure, he can dodge the ball, but he will be wide open after that since the next attack tend to miss from that position.) And in that kind of situation, there is a chance that you would forget all the talk we have and just dodge by instinct.

Yep....getting the bar is the problem, especially after opponent went into EXmode. But that's precisely why I said it is dangerous to try maintaining EXmode since that's just like giving your opponent more time to gain assist bar, too. I didn't mean to say that people will completely flee form you, but they will take more caution, that's for sure. So, there will be no reckless dash or random attack poking at you. I am not saying it is easy to gain Assist bar that way, but I am sure it is possible. In fact, there was one time in a replay between M_C and Me that we actually did assist break (or was it EX break?) and another one with me and RockmanAL. Both of those replay are made without EXbuild, yet, we were able to have enough assist to make it happened. And I assured both M_C and RockmanAL is not a bad player or at least they are on par with me. And we weren't the type that like to camp for assist, too.

So, from that, I assumed that if both player are at the same level of playing skill, you might have to deal with one or two assists during EXmode, unless the opponent is so freaked out that he does nothing but flee. Probably more than that if you stay in EXmode longer than usual. I'd prefer being able to enter EXmode frequently more than stay longer in EX mode. That way, you get to cancel out your opponent's assist bar in the process, too.

Also note: me too. It's been a while that I actually have an on topic talk like this. It's been a poll after another lately, lol.

Note 2: in case you were wondering, Me and M_C match should be the very first PvP vid I had with Mad, and It was RockAL(OK) vs me(Jecht) vid.


Dodging by instinct...really depends on the player. Not trying to brag, but I've practiced doing that for just such an occasion. Of course, I still screw up every now and then, but I usually keep tabs on all the helpful data in battle. Another thing: If we were battling, I would have taken note of your Assist and adjusted my dodges accordingly. For example, If it's Yuna or Kuja, and I sense a pincer, I'll ground dodge. Of course, you could simply save your Assist. And back to the feint(I'm all over the place today, huh?), Tifa can seriously delay, or outright cancel any attacks after a feint.

Hmm...Good point. For some characters, I'd want to stay in as long as possible, but for most, I'd try to consistently enter EX Mode. And if I'm being entirely honest, I haven't decided if those few characters would benefit more from their bonuses than constantly wiping the enemies Assist bar. But there is that one item that gives you EX armor(avoid EX Break once). Well, what's your opinion on this small list? I say:

Tifa(Can do five times her critical damage with a full bar, so I do my best to keep it full)
Cloud(Damage increases with health, which constantly heals during EX Mode,.and all attacks are unblockable)
Squall(Damage increases with health, all hits land twice)
Tidus(Damage increases with health, can simply run through all low priority ranged attacks, and runs faster)
Garland(Gets super armor)
Cloud of Darkness(Erases cooldown)
Terra&Kefka(Double casting all spells and gliding)

I say these character's bonuses MIGHT be worth staying in EX Mode for a long time, compared to constantly erasing the opponent's Assist. Especially with the constant healing and if EX Critical Boost is equipped. Oh, and let's add Gabranth, for obvious reasons. Your opinion?
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I'm an amateur writer. I write CYOAs to practice.
#37gadgaurdPosted 12/4/2012 2:44:39 PM
YonKitoTaoshibe posted...
EX generation and absorption from Chase is awesome (I think the values are like 70 for BRV and 90 for HP attacks), but it is risky. The safest way to do it is to wallrush the foe ASAP. That way you get the EX Force and keep the pain down to a minimum. Best with White Gem, Tenacious Attacker (a staple), Glutton (so if you take a hit the foe isn't the only one getting EX Force), and Sturm und Drang.
Center of the World isn't really necessary if you do this.


The level of risk is definitely subjective, though. I practiced at it like other people practice Exdeath, and I find it...not easy, but not hard. I personally like to hit the enemy a lot before ending Chase.
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I'm an amateur writer. I write CYOAs to practice.
#38The_Lost_SabrePosted 12/4/2012 3:00:02 PM(edited)
Squall(Damage increases with health, all hits land twice)

Squall's damage doesn't depend on his health in EX Mode. They depend on Squall pulling the trigger of his gunblade; meaning attacks involving his feet (i.e. Heel Crush, any kicks during any attack), magic, and HPA doesn't benefit from the trigger benefit. Heel Crush does benefit from an extended range. Squall's attack in general in EX Mode, aside from magic and HPA, have a range increase.
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#39GuilmonDXPosted 12/4/2012 3:33:48 PM(edited)
Gabranth is the only character I would use CotW to extend his EX mode, since he is the only character can go to EX mode faster compare to other characters.

The purpose to extending Gabby's EX mode is so he has more time to attack more aggressively, and have longer HP/Brave Regen to keep him alive/do more damage.

You are welcome to EX Burst any time whenever you hit your opponent with HP attack. EX Charge, harass, HP attack, EX Burst, (get stage bravery if their brave is broken) EX Charge, repeat.

If you running assist depletion build on FULL EX Gabby, you don't have to worry that much of your opponent building up assist during EX mode.

Every other character are better off get to EX mode consecutively than extending it.
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#40Enlong(Topic Creator)Posted 12/4/2012 5:29:38 PM
Hm...

Giving Gabranth a shot with that thing, and he actually is pretty sweet with it.

I need to repeat Dreams of a Flying Castle; I want more Tomes of Adventure so I can make him a Battle Hammer.
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