Most backstab/riposte damage rapier or bandit knife?

#1doomedsunsoulPosted 11/20/2011 3:47:51 PM
Ok we have been trying to figure this out in the xbox forum(yeah i know)but this place has so much more traffic and players.

I made a +5 chaos bandit knife and Estoc and tried testing things out.

The bk did SLIGHTLY more backstab then the Estoc.

The Estoc did slightly more damage with riposte.

Anyone know what an actual rapier does since i've heard it tops the estoc easily?

As you can see the other thread is getting trolled by the guy who tattooed a BK knife on his ass apparently and he felt the need to insult the ps3 forum so i figured i should ask you guys just because i can.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/608635-dark-souls/61069123
#2exodus18Posted 11/20/2011 4:52:23 PM
Unrelated but tell your fellow xbox players to start posting on this forum.

With our powers combined, we will return this game back to the number 1 slot!
#3Vapid_ZeroPosted 11/20/2011 4:57:33 PM
All rapier type swords have an unlisted critical bonus, which allows them to outclass any dagger, the absolute top weapon for critical damage is the normal rapier. Estoc comes in at second place, but has better normal damage, and range.

If your going for a critical build, put the bandit's dagger away and pull out either a rapier for absolute best critical damage, or estoc if your willing to sacrifice a bit of critical damage for more range and base attack power.
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#4squidward25Posted 11/20/2011 5:56:54 PM
Rapiers arnt the strongest critical weapons. Weapons with very high base dmg like zwei, gaxe, g club outdmgs it by quite a bit. Bare in mind that bk and estoc do different dmg types I think whilst estoc generally outdmgs bandit knife that enemy may have had more resistance ti whatevrr dmg type giving you close results.

Generally for critical dmg only its > high base dmg weapons 650ish starts to outdmg rapier -700 ohtclasses them by a lot > rapier > estoc > bandit knife.

Still rapiers estocs etc are the prefferd bs weapo s as theres no long swing animation for missing one
#5doomedsunsoul(Topic Creator)Posted 11/20/2011 6:04:01 PM
Vapid_Zero posted...
All rapier type swords have an unlisted critical bonus, which allows them to outclass any dagger, the absolute top weapon for critical damage is the normal rapier. Estoc comes in at second place, but has better normal damage, and range.

If your going for a critical build, put the bandit's dagger away and pull out either a rapier for absolute best critical damage, or estoc if your willing to sacrifice a bit of critical damage for more range and base attack power.


Any idea how it actually calculates?

I have been testing a +5 chaos bandit vs. estoc and the bandit does slightly better backstab while the estoc does slightly better riposte. Haven't upgraded a plain rapier though.
#6palindrome68Posted 11/20/2011 6:25:57 PM
First problem is that you are using Chaos weapon which maxes out scaling at 10 humanity. Second, the bandit's knife has the highest critical rating which IS recorded in the game. Rapier has a critical of 110 whereas the bandits knife has one of 147. Base damage for rapier is 73 and for bandit knife its 56. At +15 the rapier will win but only because of the higher base damage. As far as a higher backstab damage compared to the normal attack the bandits knife will win. If you are this concerned about backstabs you should test it with hornets ring on and with a dex build. In higher levels anything that has a cap on how much it can scale will lose to something that has no limit on scaling. This means Fire, Lightning and Chaos weapons are bad choices. Raw is also bad, but no one EVER chooses raw unless they are going for a magic hybrid build that focuses almost entirely on enchanting a weapon as its "one trick pony".
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#7jmodum90Posted 11/20/2011 6:55:03 PM
The key to the thrusting sword crit damage is that they negate armor better than the bandit knife via their thrust damage. In other words, on unarmored targets, the bandit knife should outcrit the thrusting sword in most cases, assuming equal reinforcement. However, on armored targets, the thrusting swords will do more crit damage because less of the target's defense stats are being applied to your attack value.

There is wiggle room in both instances depending on your attack stats, weapon bonuses, target defenses, etc.

I like to run +15 bandit knife with +5 enchanted estoc on a dex/int build. Works well enough. I've been meaning to test rapier vs estoc though to see if rapier's 1.1x crit value is enough to outdo the estoc's higher base damage.
#8Onion_PaladinPosted 11/20/2011 7:12:40 PM
I'm pretty sure the Jumbo weapons like the Zweihander, Demon Machete and Demon's Greataxe will give the highest BS damage. At least that's how it worked in Demon's Souls, excluding the fatal upgrades, the DBS was king. It was pretty well accepted that a BS from it would empty the HP of any phantom.

It is also worth noting that the weapon buff damage is applied equally per hit. So the critical animations with two hits, like on the Jumbos, apply the buff damage twice but the weapons with the quick single stab animation only apply that extra damage once.
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#9jmodum90Posted 11/20/2011 8:15:17 PM
Onion_Paladin posted...
I'm pretty sure the Jumbo weapons like the Zweihander, Demon Machete and Demon's Greataxe will give the highest BS damage. At least that's how it worked in Demon's Souls, excluding the fatal upgrades, the DBS was king. It was pretty well accepted that a BS from it would empty the HP of any phantom.

That is and isn't true, for the most part. Like was said earlier, the thrusting swords are negating armor in their backstabs/ripostes in ways that the other weapons are not. That is why they seem to have higher critical damage. It's not modifying the actual attack stat; it's that less of that attack stat is being negated by the target armor. So on unarmored targets, the weapon with the biggest pure damage will obviously do the most damage. However, if you're fighting someone with full Havel on, thrusting swords will do more in backstabs because of the armor negation.

Also, this discussion is tailored more towards builds that rely on backstabs for the majority of their damage. The thing about using the large weapons like that is that if you miss the backstab, you're left extremely vulnerable because of the long animations for them. Missing with a thrusting sword or dagger is not as big of a flub. The big weapons are more about deterrence and sheer overwhelming power.