Sif: #1 most useless summon?

#61zyrax2301Posted 11/12/2012 6:52:02 PM
The moonlight knight posted...
This board has been way too abusive for me to bother reading those posts. You guys no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt. If stating a fact that flies in the face of a popularly held belief is enough, in your minds, to warrant ganging up on me, then it's in my best interest to just laugh at you.


Whuh...

Why do you always get into pointless arguments then pull this b**** card? I get the idea that you enjoy making yourself feel hard done by.
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Why? Because **** you is why.
#62m415mikePosted 11/12/2012 6:52:27 PM
The moonlight knight posted...
This board has been way too abusive for me to bother reading those posts. You guys no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt. If stating a fact that flies in the face of a popularly held belief is enough, in your minds, to warrant ganging up on me, then it's in my best interest to just laugh at you.


LOOOOOL!!! Of course. It's pretty convenient that you decide to stop reading our posts as soon as I say something to indisputably disprove something you said.

I knew there was a reason "YOU DEFEATED" popped in to my field of vision when I made that last post.
#63moodyjm2Posted 11/12/2012 6:57:23 PM
m415mike posted...
"The burden of proof (Latin: onus probandi) is the obligation to shift the accepted conclusion away from an oppositional opinion to one's own position."

The accepted conclusion is that Beatrice is useless against the Four Kings. Thus, burden of proof lies with you. You are the one who is obligated to shift our opinion to be congruent with yours. So far, all evidence on the table is anecdotal, and therefore virtually useless in an actual debate. However, being that our position is the commonly accepted one, your position is the one that needs to bring substantial empirical evidence to the table.

I spend the majority of my time arguing and debating. Do not think you can do it better than me.

P.S.- I have never held an actual conversation with you, but I have seen a lot of your activity. While many people do gang up on you, it seems to be due to the fact that you like to run your mouth against popular opinion without any documented evidence to back up what you say. This would be fine if you didn't argue so stubbornly about it. Once you provide video evidence of whatever your claim may be, then you may argue about it without being ganged up on.


*slow clap* *proper bow*
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GT: DragonSoundxSG
"Say goodnight Manuel."
#64The moonlight knightPosted 11/12/2012 6:58:01 PM
Ignoring all the broman lulz troll posts, my playstyle against 4 Kings is a very aggressive melee strategy. This keeps 4 Kings focused on me. If I falter much, causing them to turn their attention on her for too long, this can make us both suffer. If they turn their attention to her briefly for me to catch a breather/rebuff, then rush in behind them, it can be very helpful though. Plus if the king I'm fighting spams stalling attacks and a second king emerges, she'll have my back when I kill the one I've been fighting so I don't risk being ganked as he dematerialises into light.

This is on top of her ability to unleash some very damaging magic.

I'm not saying her performance against 4 Kings is as effective as Tarkus against Iron Golem. I'm saying her performance against Moonlight Butterfly is as impressive as Tarkus vs. Iron Golem, and in addition to that she holds her own a hell of a lot better against one of the toughest bosses in the game than nearly all other summons do against late-game bosses.

Also, I said Tarkus was most useless summon to expose hypocrisy on this board. I knew people would come out and justify me being harassed because I "provoked" the whole board to gang up on me for saying that, yet in the same breath none of these people factor in the bashing of Beatrice is just as provoking to me. See, no one considers that. Which tells me they're full of crap.


And yes, I am also certain sexism has a role in all of this. Solaire is far dumber, consistently, against Centipede Demon, but I never see anyone bash him. For some WHACKY reason, Beatrice earns all these brosters ire the most, by far. Crazy, that.
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I am snazzier, hot, hot rant. Warily slight as.
Croak rush, OK? Weirder, almighty make out. ::)
#65NovaLevossidaPosted 11/12/2012 7:14:06 PM(edited)
The moonlight knight posted...
in addition to that she holds her own a hell of a lot better against one of the toughest bosses in the game than nearly all other summons do against late-game bosses.


Let's clarify "holds her own" for a minute. To me, that means she increases the boss's HP while she stands out of range of the boss seldom and also ineffectually firing magic at the boss, lucky to contribute anything worthwhile to the boss. This behavior is seen in another summon: Sif. I do not think that Sif increases the boss HP of Manus though because he is summoned after the fight begins, but Beatrice definitely does that. Additionally, Manus is a very fast-paced boss, so for all of Sif's inability to contribute to damage, he does create some breathing room for you to heal (like Beatrice can). The difference is, the Four Kings are not a threatening boss fight unless you are so terrible at them that you simply must heal multiple times or let another one spawn, so you don't really need to heal. Either poise tank them or roll and keep on attacking; the time to heal is after you kill one.

So, to me, "holds her own" means that she isn't dying because she's in the corner missing or out of range of her magic spells while also increasing the boss HP to make the fight harder for you, while also providing an opening for you to heal which you wouldn't need in the first place if she weren't present because the boss would have less HP and you could heal between them easier since they're dying faster.
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Invading world of the guilty as spirit of vengeance The guilty pay the price.
I hate Square-Activision's FFXIII and its slew of cash-in spin-offs & sequels
#66The moonlight knightPosted 11/12/2012 7:17:01 PM
The fastest I ever killed 4 Kings was with Beatrice alongside me. So there goes the complaint that either the HP she gives them is significant or she doesn't do more than enough damage to undo it.

Also it's ideal if she does stay out of range, by far. If she gets up close that's bad.

Also, you can't poise tank 4 Kings in NG+7. And depending on the attack order they choose, you may not come close to killing the first in time before the second spawns.

More than once with Beatrice, we were able to kill the first king so fast, we were left standing there for quite awhile waiting for the next, which we then promptly killed so fast, we were, again, waiting for quite some time for the next to show up.

So yeah Beatrice can be pretty ****ing impressive.
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I am snazzier, hot, hot rant. Warily slight as.
Croak rush, OK? Weirder, almighty make out. ::)
#67moodyjm2Posted 11/12/2012 7:19:43 PM(edited)
Solaire is invaluable for newer and offline players against the some of the harder bosses -Gargoyles, Gaping Dragon, S&O, and Centipede. And Gwynn if you get that far.

His lightning is powerful and his HP especially after NG is sky high.

Not to mention his story arc is actually one of the only active ones present in the game.

Beatrice is only really effective against one of the easier bosses and her story is minimal. And there is really no chance for her versus invaders, something Solaire is also very good against.
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GT: DragonSoundxSG
"Say goodnight Manuel."
#68NovaLevossidaPosted 11/12/2012 7:24:46 PM(edited)
I forgot that you only play on NG+7 and beyond, and only relate those experiences to anything you present for debate, which is completely out of touch with what most people experience and are referring to.

I might make a video later of my fastest NG+7 kill time and challenge you to do it faster with Beatrice. Maybe. Not sure if it would phase you though.
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Invading world of the guilty as spirit of vengeance The guilty pay the price.
I hate Square-Activision's FFXIII and its slew of cash-in spin-offs & sequels
#69shadowsofdawnPosted 11/12/2012 7:26:44 PM
YOU DEFEATED
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\o/ Administering jolly ass-whoopings everyday.
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#70The moonlight knightPosted 11/12/2012 7:42:37 PM
Solaire is invaluable for newer and offline players against the some of the harder bosses -Gargoyles,

He's died on me vs. them. He doesn't seem to have much health and he's pretty defenseless against their formidable onslaughts.

Gaping Dragon,


I summon him for this fight to make it interesting since trying to end the battle with him still alive is quite the challenge.

S&O,

Is it even possible to end this fight with him alive in NG+?

and Centipede.


He's a colossal dumbass in this fight. If he does drag his sorry ass eventually to the large area of non-lava, he serves as a good distraction.

And Gwynn if you get that far.


I would hope he gets a ton of HP for that otherwise you'd be summoning a punching bag that lasts for like 14 seconds. >_>

I forgot that you only play on NG+7 and beyond, and only relate those experiences to anything you present for debate, which is completely out of touch with what most people experience and are referring to.


Actually, I think the hardest PvE can get is the best way to measure the worth of the summons. If anyone wishes to imply Beatrice gets MORE effective in later playthroughs, which may even be possible, then I don't think that detracts from her awesomeness, at all.

I might make a video later of my fastest NG+7 kill time and challenge you to do it faster with Beatrice. Maybe. Not sure if it would phase you though.


That sort of thing wouldn't mean much because how long the fight takes is largely up to what moves they choose to do. I've had the first king just spam the grab and AoE attacks a lot until well into the second king spawning. Or floating backwardsto fire a homing energy wave thing.

That doesn't detract from the point that with Beatrice tagging along we've been able to slaughter the first two so quickly that we were just standing there for a good 5 to 8 seconds waiting for the next to show up.

If you seriously wish to argue that Beatrice does more harm than good, well, I already know you're wrong, but, the best way to determine this is to find out how much her presence boosts them. PC board might be able to help you with that (though I wouldn't count on it).

From there we need to figure out how much damage she can do with her spells, see how many hits she'd need to get in, to undo the boost they got.


However, I will say that it is possible for her AI to derp out sometimes. I've seen that. I've also seen Tarkus get killed by Iron Golem. Nothing is a sure thing when AI is involved, I suppose. Alls I'm saying is Beatrice is very powerful in that fight and has the capability do be a great help, and sometimes is.
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I am snazzier, hot, hot rant. Warily slight as.
Croak rush, OK? Weirder, almighty make out. ::)