Real Talk: Changes to the PvP in Dark Souls 2

#51TILlegion777Posted 1/30/2013 9:34:54 AM
What I'd love is to see Cvfd's changes in Dark Souls II, and EWGF's implemented over a longer period (2-3 games, if the series continues that long) or in a new series. As much as a lot of that would be nice, it seems too much to ask for in one iteration.
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#52shadowsofdawnPosted 1/30/2013 9:42:41 AM
EWGF posted...
BS fix:
1. Increase damage.
2. Only allow a BS to land while an opponent is swinging, or in swing recovery.
3. Running disables the ability to BS.
4. Non-BS Swipes to the back deal high damage.
5. Faster animation... it takes too long.

Purpose here is to keep BS as a dangerous punishing tool, and not an offensive spam. It should not be removed... fish should always be a threat, as it encourages careful play. My suggestions are also 1000x times better than "SHILED ON DA' BACK" or "NOT WHEN LOCKED ON"... because it makes sense, still plays similar to how it does before, and successfully just removes the abusive aspects of it.


Great stuff, but this doesn't really address roll backstabs and how amazing they are. This makes sprinting poisestabs impossible, but you can still i-frame through any attack that isn't lightning fast and land a backstab.

Maybe make it so that if you tag your opponent with an attack, even if they are protected by i-frames, the backstab window is closed for the remainder of your swing animation and the recovery frames for that one attack. Follow up attack will reopen the backstab window until another confirmed hit.
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#53MrSmi7hPosted 1/30/2013 10:09:47 AM
If people want something that much balanced the system should be redone from the beginning, cause this game as it is, needs backstabs.

Basically BS is your only choice for punishing invaders trying to run behind a creep, host flasking, or gankers.
#54EWGFPosted 1/30/2013 10:53:45 AM
zyrax2301 posted...
Fair enough, I always liked the don't-get-hit mantra of DS PvP but I'd like to hear a bit more about your idea...so the way I understand it, everybody moves/rolls at the same speed but people who have more armour/poise take a larger stamina hit every time they do? Would that affect their stamina usage from weapons as well?

Or is a stamina regeneration penalty...?


All the changes I wanted were not all in the same section, here's my unified vision for how the mechanic would work:

1. Add a visible Poise meter for both you and your lock target or any target you're hitting (appears below the lifebar). This is to remove the seeming random behavior of both your Poise, and your opponent's.

2. Remove all modified roll speeds, roll penalties, DWGR, all of it. Instead impose a stamina tax for the weight of gear that effects rolling/sprinting. This tax should be very heavy. The idea is a guy in a set of giant's armor spends 200%-400% more on rolls/sprinting.
There is a good reason for this:

- No one will pay for Poise with speed.

Equipping will always be the same: aim for the most Poise possible whle maintaining roll speed. The problem is that the effective cost of attaining Poise (roll speed) is always less than the valuation on Poise. Currently there is no reason for people to go full Havel or whatever. The objective is to find a commodity players are willing to pay... and I think this tax (although severe) is perfect.

This cost would not only allow players to wear whatever armor they liked, it would give those who choose no Poise such a wellspring of stamina that they would be able to fight very agressively (noted with a mechanic below).

It also has the added effect of vastly diversifying builds:
A. No Endurance gouging required to wear the heaviest armor.
B. No Ring crutches (Wolf, DWGR, Havel, Father's... all gone).

3. Penalize/Remove Poise while sprinting.
Self-explanatory: removing BS abuse... especially combined with proposed BS nerfs.
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#55EWGFPosted 1/30/2013 11:06:47 AM
shadowsofdawn posted...
Great stuff, but this doesn't really address roll backstabs and how amazing they are. This makes sprinting poisestabs impossible, but you can still i-frame through any attack that isn't lightning fast and land a backstab.

Maybe make it so that if you tag your opponent with an attack, even if they are protected by i-frames, the backstab window is closed for the remainder of your swing animation and the recovery frames for that one attack. Follow up attack will reopen the backstab window until another confirmed hit.


Yes, rollstabs are a problem, but they're also a remarkably easy fix: Despite the fact they're amazing, at the end of the day it's a counter and thus the conditions to make them fair is simply reducing the window in which they apply. There are good ways of doing this:

1. Reducing roll iFrames (already made mention of).
2. Giving slow weapons suitable pokes (already mentioned).
3. (NEW) I mentioned for my BS nerfs to simply make any input used while-dashing, a dashing attack, and never a BS. Well, apply the same rule to rolls:
During a roll state, all attacks will be WR R1s/R2s. As you know the "roll state" in which you can use roll attacks lasts for a half second or more after the roll animation is completed... in this window simply prevent BSing.

So in a nutshell for BSes:

1. Can't be sprinting.
2. Can't be rolling.
3. Can only be done during an attack.
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#56NotoriousZRVPosted 1/30/2013 11:45:10 AM
I think getting blow for blow combat shouldn't be a big focal point, but rather rewarding for being stealthy is key here.
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#57ShenGonPosted 1/30/2013 12:05:52 PM
moving away from the combat mechanic I would like to see a change to how invasions work

instead of solely reliant on boss fog invasions should be left to player discretion as well so that covenants like gravelord do not have to go to new game plus to gravelord areas they have beaten.

also if there is a covenant like dark moon, I would like a change to how they invade as well. Darkwraiths with a lot of indictments should be allowed to be invaded by dark moons whether they have beaten the boss or not. Also for a Darkwraith with a lot of indictment whenever they invade the game should pull a dark Moon character to invade the same players world to stop the darkwraith.
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#58Dex_PyromaniacPosted 1/30/2013 12:17:04 PM
If they keep stuff like green blossoms, EWGFs stamina suggestion is pretty flawed though
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#59EWGFPosted 1/30/2013 4:12:49 PM
Dex_Pyromaniac posted...
If they keep stuff like green blossoms, EWGFs stamina suggestion is pretty flawed though


I sort of agree, yes. Green Blossoms and my recommendations for Poise would cause players to wear the heaviest gear possible, and spam Green Blossom. There are easy fixes for this problem however (such as causing stamina regeneration to take slightly longer to occur after an action).

The best fix is that Green Blossom shouldn't exist really... not as an item that can be readily used in combat without risk. In fact, one thing I failed to mention in all my posting is how terribly bad/unbalanced character buffs are. The fact that Green Blossom is the like the best self-buff except maybe GMB (when it's good) is pretty sad.

Examples of good self-buffs:
- Second Chance.
- Warding.
- Green Blossom (as a spell).
- Silences.
- DeS Cloak, pre-nerf Dark Souls Cloak.
- TWoP. This spell was a great idea that was too powerful pre-patch, and god awful post-patch. A properly balanced version of this spell would be nice.
- New stuff.

Consider this a new point: fix self-buffs.

And while we're here:
- Vary Weapon buffs.

Weapon buffs are pretty decent. There's no real problem with them. They have playable low stat and high stat buffs. Invisible Weapon is actually a good buff too, and so is Poisonous Resin.
More non-damaging wacky stuff like Vampiric buffs (life steal), Bleed buffs... etc. would just be, well more fun/varied.
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#60dthomas125Posted 1/30/2013 4:45:45 PM
I would like to see whip heavy attacks by-pass shields. It kinda makes sense that it would curve over and around a shield.
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