Is it me, or do rapiers suck?

#21lucky_sharm19Posted 2/10/2013 12:53:03 AM
localizedfreedo posted...
lucky_sharm19 posted...
Estoc is more useful as a primary means of engagement rather than being a backstab/riposte weapon. It still deals more critical damage than other weapons, though.


Estoc is one of the best left hand weapons in the game, blood.


Seems like a bit of a waste to use it on your left hand. I'd rather have a shield to set up parries with.
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#22Renegade109Posted 2/10/2013 2:09:37 AM(edited)
A bit of misinformation back there, so let's clarify some things. Dagger and Rapier-class weapons all possess an innate higher critical modifier than other weapons, this value is hidden and is a separate thing from the 'Critical XXX' figure you see when examining a weapon's stats (which serve to as a means for you to differentiate between the weapons in the classes).

As for Rapier-class weapon usage, the Estoc is the all-rounder package for PvP. You can turtle with it due to the extended range compared to other Rapier-class weapons and is arguably the most viable in its class if you're looking to main a Rapier. Overall, it will however deal marginally less damage than the standard Rapier on BS' and Ripostes.

The regular Rapier, by comparison, is the opposite. It has pathetic range on its poke and its AR makes it less suitable than the Estoc for anything outside of BS' / Riposte.

Ricard's Rapier is the go-to for PvE, mainly due to the R2 string bringing about a lot of pain when you've applied an appropriate buff.

Velka's Rapier, whilst (IIRC) having the same range on its pokes as the Estoc is really only suited properly to Dex/Int, which makes it less desirable overall than its more flexible cousin. Furthermore, unlike an Estoc +15 it has to deal with the dual AR issue, but its still fairly solid if you're built to use it.

Overall, maining a Rapier in PvP (i.e. maining the Estoc or Velkas) all comes down to defensive playing, antagonising your opponent by chipping away at their HP with behind-shield pokes while they try fruitlessly to get around your shield. This style of playing gives you time to assess your opponent's habits (hint hint, time for dem blind parries) and the fact that a skilled turtle is very difficult to shut down quickly means that your opponent will eventually start taking risks and making mistakes that you exploit to punish with backstabs and ripostes with Oki Great Combustion or Chainstabbing to really lay the hurt down afterwards. Generally, unless your opponent leaves their back wide open 99% of the time like a typical noobleramensoup, you'll find that it's not a fast-killing style of playing (not even pre-patch), and particularly not at higher tiers of competition, since it emphasises minimising risk and exploiting your opponent's errors at its core.

Enisle2004 was a player I used to enjoy watching on YouTube from time to time, and though from what I've seen he doesn't utilise parries very often he still demonstrates how an Estoc turtle is supposed to be played for the most part. For those aspiring turtles be sure to check out his 'Kiln of the First Flame' series (1-10).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS5TgjWd9o8

Turtle vs Turtle (exciting!)

Enisle spends most of the early match chipping his opponent's HP, whom gets fed up and attempts a crude BS which Enisle punishes with a strafe counter BS at 1:20.

For the current patch you're going to want to lose the Lightning Estoc, as Chaos is the only Ele path that's half decent after the nerf if you're going Vitality Gouge Elemental. For +15 Estoc users you're going to want to stick ideally with Quality / Pyro, but Dex / Pyro also works. Buffs don't really mesh too well with Rapiers against skilled players, but they can readily shut down careless ones, I wouldn't recommend it overall unless you're primarily PvE'ing with Ricard's. If I were to dedicate a build to the Estoc, I would probably run Vit Gouge Ele and DWGR + Hornets for optimising roll BS and compensating for the BS damage nerf in the current patch.
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#23BladeKnife(Topic Creator)Posted 2/10/2013 2:44:21 AM
Renegade, problem is the Estoc is good 1vs1 against players that don't heal, but that's it. The low damage output, even on backstab, gives you a huge disadvantage in any other situation. And in a 1vs1 scenario, a long spear performs even better than the estoc.

Look, I find rapiers fun, but they're not very good. There's always a better choice available.
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#24Tr1pLe-Posted 2/10/2013 3:43:36 AM
I think the rapier class is better suited as a secondary weapon. Unless u have the patience to poke and move...
#25Renegade109Posted 2/10/2013 5:36:39 AM(edited)
BladeKnife posted...
Etc


If you'd watched some of Enisle's videos he actually does engage multiple opponents simultaneously with victories at the Kiln, and I myself have little problem taking apart two players with an Estoc main, three can be hectic and victories are inconsistent against those odds in straight up brawls (then again, what weapon is going to grant you a favorable winning ratio 3v1?) but it is certainly doable.

Long Spears by comparison are actually horrendous against players that heal because their backstab / riposte damage is practically non-existent and their damage per strike isn't anything to write home about either.

Where the Long Spear excels is against opponents where you can effectively stay on the edge of an opponent's reach so they can't close the distance whilst prodding them for damage. This however doesn't work well at all against weapons like the ever-popular Katanas, in particular the Chaos Blade and its buffable cousins (the bread and butter 2h WD R1 with much more solid damage and enormous lateral range means that even a Long Spear user is going to be extremely pressured, not even going into broken DWGR 2h WR R1 Kat spam) other Long Spears or even Estoc turtles. None of which are nearly as threatening against Estoc/Rapier + Shield (where Estoc turtle mirror is about on par with Long Spear mirror in terms of difficulty / monotony of engaging), where you can safely chip away without worry while better punishing openings with BS. Spears on the other hand hand have laughable BS output and are essentially relegated to their R1 swings while being far more vulnerable to the aforementioned attacks.

A Chaos Estoc paired with the Hornet Ring (which all Estoc mains should be using) even in the current patch can readily take just under 2k HP with two backstabs (i.e. one chain), which is coincidentally where many conventional builds tend to sit HP-wise and benefits further due to the reduction in defenses on average across the community due to the DWGR nerf. Even if your opponent survives that kind of onslaught they're going to be critically close to death and looking desperately to heal after two Hornet BS', in which case you simply perform another BS punish. Otherwise you have options to rack up additional damage, for example Great Combustion on wake-up.

Interestingly enough, for a match between a Rapier/Estoc turtle and a Long Spear, the Rapier-wielder can actually attempt to BS you all day because a spear user would be crazy to try and counter-bs a Hornet-Rapier/Estoc combo given that the former has practically no backstab damage to speak of, whilst the latter is potentially two-shot fatal. One slip for the spear user and they're halfway to dead. Two and it's over. The Spear user on the other hand needs A) A way to get around the Estoc turtle's shield (Crest Shield effectively shuts down the SKS and MLBH, the two most common Long Spears), and B) drain 2k+ HP with regular swings against an opponent that can potentially two-shot you.

This is the finals of a tournament that was run on GameFAQs awhile ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTr3-T_6cC0

7:00 - Jumi vs Bitstar

Jumi's main is the CB, but as soon the match begins he switches to a Rapier / Shield combo and does practically nothing but look to capitalise on Bitstar's openings to punish with BS / roll BS. Bitstar can't do anything to get around Jumi's turtling and is at a blatant disadvantage when he attempts to counter BS. It also does nicely to illustrate the difference between a Rapier and an SKS in terms of BS damage.

Overall, while it's true to say that the Long Spear has quite a few favorable match-ups, it's erroneous to say that it dwarfs the performance of well played Estoc + Shield combo in all scenarios. Ultimately, both have favorable and unfavorable match-ups.
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#26ZenonDMAPosted 2/10/2013 6:11:18 AM
Rapier +15, is still my weapon of choice, for when I dont have much equip weight left (on a Q build).
Recently coupled it with Leo ring for fun and it deals lots of damage.
The R2 (not the follow-up) is a really good pocking tool, deals nice damage and has decent range.

I agree that an elemental rapier would suck, but that would include all elemental weapons for me (except the hard hitters).
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#27Tr1pLe-Posted 2/10/2013 6:42:13 AM
Nice posts renegade, ive been running an estoc main and shotel 2nd on my 100 character. Its a really nice combo. I find through pubbing at the burg people dont really know how to deal with it except for fishing and poise bs attempts.
#28lucky_sharm19Posted 2/10/2013 2:43:06 PM
Does no one else carry a Shotel when players start turtling? Just me?
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PSN: GSPhantom
Shall we dance, my darling?
#29Tr1pLe-Posted 2/10/2013 3:02:06 PM
lucky_sharm19 posted...
Does no one else carry a Shotel when players start turtling? Just me?


Everyone should have a +15/chaos shotel to menu swap to imo. An underused weapon that i dont see many people use outside of the arena play.
#30YourWifeAndKidsPosted 2/10/2013 6:05:31 PM
BladeKnife posted...
From other posts I've seen, the weapon with the strongest backstab at 16 str (one-handed) is the Gargoyle Halberd. Is that the new rapier? Hope not, because Halberds are terrible.


FailFish. Halberds are anything but terrible.