metaphysics of dark souls

#1spitikusPosted 5/3/2013 12:58:19 PM
tried to find more info on this but couldn't really. so here?

i'm not quite through my first play-through, but i was wondering if yall had some input on this:

from what i gather, the dark sign is what makes someone become undead when they die. everyone with the dark sign is part of some lineage with the furtive pygmy. the furtive pygmy is the smallest and most inconsequential of the "gods" (or would be most inconsequential, except he is easily forgotten by definition in the game), and those that come from him are reasonably the smallest . . . more on this in a sec.

now of the people we meet in the game (NPCs), are any alive still? i know sieglinde is. many we can't tell coz we can't see them -- like siegmeyer. i thought that nearly everyone we meet is alive, but the crestfallen warrior talks about not wanting to die *again*. so is he undead though he looks alive? is he alive because he's used humanity collected to reverse his hollowing? the covenant of the white peeps are alive. other npcs are mostly alive (because the 'undead merchants' are the exception, right?).

the darksign can't be that rare because of all the f'ing hollows around (and they respawn when they die -- though this isn't totally accurate coz other enemies respawn as well). so all the hollows we meet were humans with the darksign -- i think the human race as we see it must be all from the furtive pygmy, so everyone who is human and dies becomes undead. when humans die they become undead, but their soul or whatever does not go to another plane (unlike, for instance, black knights who do not respawn -- they are dead and supposedly go somewhere else or cease to exist -- they are not inflicted by the darksign, their lineage is not that of the furtive pygmy). so while death may normally cease creatures' existence or whatever, for humans it's not so. and so humans have been all shipped to lordran (land of the undead). so all creatures "with the dark sign" = the human race? and the human race were just a minor race in ages past filled with dragons and gods and giant beings (like those of anor londo), but because the pygmy is so fkin furtive and sneaky he used the darksign to eventually win out in the end. everyone else (gwyn? nito? etc?) forgot about the whole "i will make my descendants undead when they die" and didn't realize how consequential it would be until theres a whole nation of undead and just ~one~ undead who doesn't hollow.

one other "tiny" person who is not human is solaire. but he supposedly descends from some god, right? and he willed himself to be undead so he could find his own light. he is not inflicted with the darksign to be undead, but as a godly being or whatever he manifested himself in an undead form? but even he can't escape the effect of hollowing as he seems to become more and more crazy.

are humans just the minor race of this world that the giants lived in? they were easily forgotten because they were tiny, tiny because they came from the furtive pygmy.

there's also the whole turning of ages. obviously there is some sort of overarching force that made the times change (from dragon to the age of fire), but it seems like gwyn forgets this if he wants to cling on to the age of fire. so the point of the game seems to be whether or not you are the 'chosen undead' and make the next cycle come about (if you keep the fire kindled for gwyn, you either are not or you are breaking the prophecy?)
#2spitikus(Topic Creator)Posted 5/3/2013 12:58:35 PM
so what happens to other dead who are not human/inflicted with the darksign? is there another plane that the god beings can access or maybe once could access? what about once the chosen undead fulfills his shyte and brings about the age of darkness -- do the undead cease to be undead and can finally just be dead?

how come other undead like crestfallen warrior don't respawn after you've killed them? are there certain circumstances in which the undead do not just "die back to undead" but rather actually die? obv there are for creatures like bosses, but they are not inflicted with the darksign.

and this doesn't even start on the time aspect.
#3Muffin2kPosted 5/3/2013 1:17:53 PM
EpicNameBro has uploaded many great plot explanations on youtube
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We have enough humans. What we need is a fountain of smart.
#4spitikus(Topic Creator)Posted 5/3/2013 1:56:19 PM
ah cool. checkin em out now.
#5Lieutenant_FuzzPosted 5/3/2013 2:14:36 PM
'Lore' would've been the more appropriate and less pretentious version of 'metaphysics'
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#6dthomas125Posted 5/3/2013 3:02:13 PM
I came here to find out what metaphysics meant.
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PSN - dthomas125 - "When the people fear the gov't there is tyranny. When the gov't fears the people there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson
#7spitikus(Topic Creator)Posted 5/3/2013 6:51:08 PM
well i was more interested in what determines undead vs dead, who can die and what the planes of existence are (besides painted world and whatever plane lordran is on). if dead humans (undead) continue to exist on the physical plane, do dead other-things continue to exist on the same plane elsewhere? dragons (ENB posits they might be undead or never had life) can exist on the plane and are not human (so, i'd assume, don't have the dark sign) -- so what constitutes undead if not the darksign? what other circumstances are there undead?

also in whether or not there was some other explanation for where the dead go who do not become undead, why some undead stay dead (crestfallen warrior), why some undead seem to be alive (crestfallen warrior). also what limitations there are to characters existence in game, if there are lore explanations (seemed like 'undead' always respawn but most all living enemies do not). what special attributes are granted to godly characters and if there was a difference before they split their lord souls

(i.e. in TES some 'gods' can be killed, but there are different types of gods, the sun is magicka and not anything we'd call a star in real life, Nirn -- the physical plane -- is actually extra-dimensionally contained within other realms like oblivion just not in three dimensions -- so lore, but more about how things function in the in-game world spatially, temporally, and dimensionally)

so there are lore explanations for why humanity is undead, but if humanity/parts of the dark soul grant 'life' to humans, is there a correlation to the other characters in game? ENB says that the dragons may have never had life, but do other characters? if so, then what qualifies them as living, what about before there were souls? only the pygmy splits his soul into a bajillion pieces, but humans must have been alive before then. so the soul (split into 'humanities') can't just be a granter of life since presumably there were humans before then, or at least there are other things that are alive.

obviously there is some sort of tie between things that are animated and "souls," which sort of follows the old christian theological / greek / roman idea of a soul granting "movement." animus (soul) granted life, which was visible in movement. but then 'souls' are diff than our view on souls, so what exactly are they? if they were also part of pygmy's lord soul then creatures other than undead humans wouldn't have them, so that can't be exactly right.

was there a race of giants other than the gods and their buddies (were there other giant beings besides gwyn, ornstein, etc?)

sorry big words seem pretentious to you! i was actually just hoping for some insight, but obv came to the wrong place haha. if anyone could point me somewhere that would be better, i'd appreciate it.
#8spitikus(Topic Creator)Posted 5/3/2013 6:53:14 PM
whoops -- meant is there a correlating "life force" for other characters in the game (that point only concerns ENB's suggestion that humanities are parts of the pygmy's lord soul split up to grant life)

then also.. how are we born with part of it?
#9Oh_HelloPosted 5/3/2013 7:51:32 PM
I have to catch up on the lore thing. but my interpretation...

I think Lordran may be an after-life place, outside the world of the living.
if this is true, I guess they're all dead (undead), but going hollow means they lost their souls and humanity, and turned hostile.

as to why NPCs don't respawn, who knows?
do all of them have Darksigns or just the players?
maybe they don't, or maybe they do respawn, somewhere.

dont know if these things are ever explained but it's a fantasy and a game, after all.
#10quartercirclePosted 5/3/2013 8:12:09 PM
Oh_Hello posted...
I have to catch up on the lore thing. but my interpretation...

I think Lordran may be an after-life place, outside the world of the living.
if this is true, I guess they're all dead (undead), but going hollow means they lost their souls and humanity, and turned hostile.

as to why NPCs don't respawn, who knows?
do all of them have Darksigns or just the players?
maybe they don't, or maybe they do respawn, somewhere.

dont know if these things are ever explained but it's a fantasy and a game, after all.


Aha! Not true! The ninja respawns if you kick him off the cliff in Darkroot without talking to Shiva after joining the covenant. When you absolve, rejoin, and talk to Shiva, he and the ninja will be chillin in the swamp like homies.

Also, Lordran is the broken archstone in Demon's Souls. How's that for a thought, hmm?