Pretty disappointed in the bad game design.

#71HoustonBoy98Posted 2/4/2013 7:37:11 PM
Good heavens, you can't even find the edit button on gamefaqs yet you expect to make it through this game?
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#72Sylus2015Posted 2/4/2013 7:39:46 PM
TC, here's a few points:
1) Wasting a Firekeeper Soul is hardly an actual impediment to your completion of the game. Kindling is a good way of remedying any shortcomings in Estus potency and is based off of Humanity (which is grossly abundant). This is trial and error because you don't need to restart. I didn't restart even though I only upgraded my Estus to +5 (I only started last month, myself). Instead, I moved on to New Game+ and finished my reinforcements through that.

2) You can never do anything in this game to actually make it impossible to finish. Seriously. While you can do things that make it more difficult and you can miss out on totally optional events and upgrades, they matter little towards completion and offer incentive to play through on NG+. Especially when faced with ultimatums, there's no way to accomplish everything in a single playthrough anyways, so missing something is hardly an actual detriment, believe it or not. While I can empathize about the Tiny Beings Ring, even that selection meant very little as every "Gift" can be acquired throughout your playthrough and there are usually more useful things anyways (apart from the Master Key which is really the second right answer to the "Gift" question behind the Pendant, but even those two can be acquired in the game).

I know it sucks when you're starting and it seems like the whole game is designed to screw you (because, well, it sorta is), but truth of the matter is that there is nothing you can do to irreversibly complicate your journey to the point of necessitating a restart. That decision is solely upon you.
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#73Goggs999Posted 2/4/2013 7:45:52 PM
Enough complaining, TC I'm gonna spell this out for you:

Going by the complaints you've made (and that's all I can go by) you are used to games spelling everything out for you, objective markers, loading screen tips and quest lists that can be neatly ticked off.

No Dark Souls does not do any of these sorts of things, if you don't like that then fine. Don't however confuse it with bad game design, it is done intentionally. Think back to old classics like the Castlevania, Balders Gate or even more recently Diablo, the game opens after a short intro and from there on you have to figure out what to do yourself. Dark Souls is the exact same type of game, albeit with better graphics ect. The idea behind this is to let you figure things out for yourself using logic and ingenuity, there may be subtle clues provided for you if you pay attention but the game designers are trying not to slap you round the head with the answer to your question every two seconds. All you should be aware of going into the game is the end goal, everything else within is fair game for you to figure out. Getting a hint is fine, having your hand held through the maze kind of defeats the purpose.

Now regarding your complaint about the enforced auto save. That particular mechanic is an excellent addition to the game and that's because being able to go back and load up a previous save prevents you from having consequences to your actions. Think about multiple choice games like Mass Effect or the Witcher. If you didn't like a particular outcome you could just change your mind and re-load you save, effectively giving you a choice becomes pointless as you simply take the best outcome every time. However in Dark Souls if you accidentally waste a firekeeper/boss soul or kill a NPC like the blacksmith you're stuck with it. You may not like it but it teaches you not to do it again. Learning from your mistakes isn't just some crazy notion that From Software invented!

Strict old school ideas that force the player to learn and improve more than just their trigger finger are partly why, for me anyway, is the only rpg I've played through more than a couple of times... and I've played most of them. If you want to present a reasoned argument as to why you think this particular method of game design is bad then do so, but don't cherry pick instances that you couldn't figure out and say it's bad design because you couldn't figure them out.
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#74WildRideBrandPosted 2/4/2013 8:48:51 PM
beggargirl posted...
You know what this game needs; Navi.

The little fairy that floats by your shoulder and whenever you can do something in the game it will light up, cause your controller to vibrate, and pause the game.

"Hey beggargirl! You just found a FIREKEEPER SOUL! Are you sure you want to consume it? All those other souls you consumed just gave you souls. Maybe we should take it to the FIREKEEPER and see if she has any information on the FIREKEEPER SOUL? It says it can be used to reinforce ESTUS FLASKS; I wonder what that means? Hey, remember when we tried to talk to the FIREKEEPER and we got that option "reinforce estus flask?" and when we tried it said we needed a FIREKEEPER soul!? Beggargirl!!!?"


This squared
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#75JPawesomePosted 2/4/2013 8:57:22 PM
Coontemptus posted...
Cvdf3 posted...
It didn't tell you it increases your flask by consumption. It lied how again?
And you at no point need to start the game over. Missing ONE upgrade to you Fkask is in no way detrimental to the game (especially NG, the easiest playthrough). 3 upgrades should be more than enough for NG.


I didn't start the game over because of it. But the only way to fix it would be to start the game over.


Or just beat the game and go to NG+ where you can keep all your items, and have a second chance to get all the loot again...

This is how people get +7 Estus Flasks and have 20 Flasks at every Bonfire.
Notice: Flask +7 means your Flask has been UPGRADED seven times. 20 Flasks means you have 20 of them (it's that "Kindle" option).
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#76Sk1rePosted 2/4/2013 10:52:14 PM
After reading this topic, i feel like my brain used a firekeeper soul and got mad then made a flame topic. Oh, and i feel like I died inside.
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#77TheAnalogKid06Posted 2/4/2013 11:46:33 PM
Coontemptus posted...
TheAnalogKid06 posted...
CTC3 posted...
Resistance is the most important stat btw. I would get it to 20 as soon as you can; maybe 25 to be safe.


Lol at TC's "I can't take this" rant. He should get it to 50 just to be real safe. He should probably put the rest of his points into attunement on a melee class as well. Like others have said make sure you kill the guy with the hammer and beard in the Undead Parish. He is bad news.


Never said I couldn't take it.

I've been on the Blizzard forums, I have plenty of resistance.


I would bet $ you will be saying that once you get to Anor Londo, especially if you actually put those points into resistance lmao. What does Blizzard have to do with anything?
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#78OgesMCPosted 2/5/2013 2:03:59 AM
I have a +2 flask with 2 unused firekeeper souls by the way, you don't need an upgraded flask to make it through NG (NG+ will allow you to get items you missed or wasted). Anyway, here's a description, straight from the item in inventory.
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Each fire keeper is a corporeal manifestation of her bonfire, and a draw for the humanity which is offered to her. Her soul is gnawed by infinite humanity, and can boost the power of precious estus flasks.

It can be used to gain humanity and restore HP at the cost of losing the fire keeper soul to reinforce the estus flasks.
-------------------

So if you checked the description, you would learn that using it will give humanity and heal, but the soul will be lost and unable to reinforce the flask. With all the talk of firekeepers in the description and boosting power, you should be able to put 2 and 2 together and search out a keeper (or like myself in my first blind play, stumble across one with the thing in inventory!).
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#79Coontemptus(Topic Creator)Posted 2/6/2013 2:48:39 PM
deadpool223 posted...
im an idiot and i made none of these mistakes. what does that make you


Not an idiot?

HoustonBoy98 posted...
Good heavens, you can't even find the edit button on gamefaqs yet you expect to make it through this game?


What do I need the edit button for? This game isn't hard. Derp.

Sylus2015 posted...
TC, here's a few points:
1) Wasting a Firekeeper Soul is hardly an actual impediment to your completion of the game. Kindling is a good way of remedying any shortcomings in Estus potency and is based off of Humanity (which is grossly abundant). This is trial and error because you don't need to restart. I didn't restart even though I only upgraded my Estus to +5 (I only started last month, myself). Instead, I moved on to New Game+ and finished my reinforcements through that.

I know it sucks when you're starting and it seems like the whole game is designed to screw you (because, well, it sorta is), but truth of the matter is that there is nothing you can do to irreversibly complicate your journey to the point of necessitating a restart. That decision is solely upon you.


I never said it was going to keep me from finishing the game. This game DISCOURAGES trial and error. Its horrible game design. Period.
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#80Coontemptus(Topic Creator)Posted 2/6/2013 2:56:27 PM
Enough complaining, TC I'm gonna spell this out for you:

Going by the complaints you've made (and that's all I can go by) you are used to games spelling everything out for you, objective markers, loading screen tips and quest lists that can be neatly ticked off.

No Dark Souls does not do any of these sorts of things,


I guess you haven't played the game, or I have a different version. When I play, there are loading screen tips, one of which actually tells you about the firekeeper soul! Now, if they had been smart enough to include that in the item description instead of putting in a place where you RANDOMLY see it, you'd have a point. But since you're wrong. You don't.

if you don't like that then fine. Don't however confuse it with bad game design, it is done intentionally. Think back to old classics like the Castlevania, Balders Gate or even more recently Diablo, the game opens after a short intro and from there on you have to figure out what to do yourself. Dark Souls is the exact same type of game, albeit with better graphics ect. The idea behind this is to let you figure things out for yourself using logic and ingenuity, there may be subtle clues provided for you if you pay attention but the game designers are trying not to slap you round the head with the answer to your question every two seconds. All you should be aware of going into the game is the end goal, everything else within is fair game for you to figure out. Getting a hint is fine, having your hand held through the maze kind of defeats the purpose.


Reality check: Those games all had a save and load function, not an auto-screw function. I'm totally fine with the auto-save on death and in combat, and the soul dropping mechanic to discourage save scumming. I get it. And I like all that. But to discourage me from using an item, and forcing me to look at a guide because the mechanics are badly designed?

Bad game design. Period.

That particular mechanic is an excellent addition to the game and that's because being able to go back and load up a previous save prevents you from having consequences to your actions. Think about multiple choice games like Mass Effect or the Witcher. If you didn't like a particular outcome you could just change your mind and re-load you save, effectively giving you a choice becomes pointless as you simply take the best outcome every time. However in Dark Souls if you accidentally waste a firekeeper/boss soul or kill a NPC like the blacksmith you're stuck with it. You may not like it but it teaches you not to do it again.


I didn't learn anything except to consult a guide before touching anything rare. Its terrible game design. I can't experiment with ANY rare item, because if I do I'm likely to be stuck with an undesirable or less than efficient outcome. In ALL the other games listed in this thread, you could save your game, experiment, then load up after you've figured out how it works. Its crazy that in a game where trial and error is expected and encouraged in combat, that its discouraged everywhere else.

Strict old school ideas that force the player to learn and improve more than just their trigger finger are partly why, for me anyway, is the only rpg I've played through more than a couple of times... and I've played most of them. If you want to present a reasoned argument as to why you think this particular method of game design is bad then do so, but don't cherry pick instances that you couldn't figure out and say it's bad design because you couldn't figure them out.


I said those choices are bad, don't go saying that applies to the whole game. I like the game (something the general trollish community here obviously missed). Forcing me to use a guide to avoid wasting rare items is bad game design. The game leaves no room for trial and error or experimenting.
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