Some lore speculation and theories

#1SelftoSelfPosted 7/10/2013 3:20:16 AM
Aight so I've been playing this game pretty much since it came out and it still has yet to get old for me. I know the lore and layout of the game pretty well(including the Artorias expansion), and there's pretty much nothing I haven't done (beside killing the Bed of Chaos in one try..)

That being said, I've come up with a couple of ideas as to what could actually going on in the game. I apologize for the excessive information, these are a couple doosies:

My first one has to do with Velka, the goddess of sin. She punishes those who have committed a sin, or those who have "disrespected their covenant." She is associated with crows as seen in the painted world, and I also believe the occult ember was placed there by her too. That being said, if that ember came from Velka, it implies that the goddess of sin was willing to punish even other gods.

Gywn, his children, those with lord souls, and the other gods of Lordran used the flame to bind humans to their power. Bonfire use humanity to kindle, weakening humans and strengthening the lords. But when the flame began to fade the god's power was threatened and in an attempt to keep it alive Gywn sacrificed himself to link the flame and continue the age of gods. But this is all pretty common knowledge to the average dark souls fanatic.

My theory is that perhaps Velka was unsatisfied in Gwyn's decision to link the flame, noble as it may have been. There is a lot of debate whether the Link the flame or Dark ending is the 'good' ending, but in my pure opinion, Gwyn screwed everything up. Fire is the essence of life, and when it was not allowed to naturally fade, it could no longer sustain the balance between life and death, thus the Darksign appeared.

I think that you are sent by Velka (who uses a giant crow to take you to Lordran) to punish the gods who are disparately trying to cling to their power and continue their oppression of humans. What could be worse than a seemingly weak enemy that can never be truly killed that will continuously throw itself at you until you are defeated? I realize the revival at bonfires after death may simply be a gameplay mechanic, but I have leaned that there is almost nothing in this game placed as an accident.

A variation of this theory I came up with too is perhaps Velka is using this quest as a punishment for the player's character. Perhaps your character sinned in his/her past life and now has been put in this hell-like land for eternity. No matter how many times you complete your journey you always return to the beginning of your quest only to find Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger enemies in a never ending cycle. It certainly has a lot of religious and mythological references to it.

Thus ends my my first theory concerning Velka. The second part about it being a punishment for you is more of a fun mind-f*** idea, I don't think it holds any true value to the actual game. Perhaps the game is a metaphor for life being a punishment in itself...


My next theory revolves around Gwyndolin. I believe he could be the actual mastermind behind your undead journey. Nearly every tough enemy/boss was placed there by him for you as a test or perhaps even a process in order to make sure your soul is powerful enough to feed the flame. He can't actually control you, which is why he can't stop you from turning on him, and why you can chose the dark ending. But I don't even think that that is the real Gwyn you fight endgame.

My proof: going through Anor Londo, you notice all enemies die in a brilliant flashing light. Upon further exploration you discover that Gwyndolin created the illusion of the enemies in Anor Londo, along with the sun and light.

When you kill Gwyn, or any other boss, they die and disappear in a way relatively similar to the Silver Knights and Sentinels of Anor Londo. So maybe they were placed there by Gwyndolin instead?
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I'm a SL 122 base Vit, Int + Dex build. Find me running through the forest.
#2SelftoSelf(Topic Creator)Posted 7/10/2013 3:20:40 AM
(Continued)

To further the point, Gwyn (the boss, not the character) is apparently hollow when you fight him. I find that to be very strange, considering the fact that he is a god. Hollowing is caused when one's, soul/humanity is sapped from them and fed to the fires, which is essentially what Gwyn did to himself. But since Gwyn is a god, he gains power from the fire, not loses it like humans, which is why I find it strange for him to be hollowed. Not to mention I don't think there is any other god that is mentioned or met in the game that is also hollowed.

Plus I think Gwyn should be MUCH larger than he is in game. Looking at his tomb, his daughter (assuming the illusion isn't oversized lol), and other enemies it seems like he's ridiculously small in comparison. Ornstein and Artorias are around his size, Smough is even bigger!

There are too many inconsistencies for me to believe all is what is appears to be hahahaha
GWYN IS NOT REAL


That closes my second theory. I know I'm really stretching it, but that's the beauty and fun of the game. I've been hanging on to these for a while, but I would love to hear what anyone thinks of them, not to mention I would love to hear anyone else's crazy speculation's too!
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I'm a SL 122 base Vit, Int + Dex build. Find me running through the forest.
#3ZOMBIEHEADZoCOMPosted 7/10/2013 4:21:49 AM
Well the first one I really don't have time to get into that right now, just have ten minutes to kill while I'm eating breakfast lol


Second one yeah I think that's a pretty good theory. Never thought about his undead form either. And good proof with the similar illusion when bosses die.
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#4SelftoSelf(Topic Creator)Posted 7/11/2013 4:09:38 PM
hahaha cool man Im glad to hear someone supports it. If you have anything to add please do I love hearing new theories
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I'm a SL 122 base Vit, Int + Dex build. Find me running through the forest.
#5Casul346Posted 7/11/2013 5:05:09 PM
ENB has talked about your first theory, check out his videos and see what you think.

Your second theory is wrong, it isn't implied anywhere the gywn is a giant. We know gwyndolin isn't an illusion, and he isn't a giant.
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George Zimmerman is innocent.
#6Necro_Fear89Posted 7/11/2013 11:24:02 PM
**Please note I am not assuming my following opinions as fact. Mostly everything about the lore in this game is speculation at best, we have no concrete proof, only subtle hints which may or may not make sense within the context of the game**

Velka has a subtle connection to the game, she isn't ever present that we know of in the game. Hell she could have been the giant crow who carries you to Lordran to begin with or have sent the crow for you. What we know is that as soon as you defeat the Bellfry Gargoyles Oswald makes an appearance, have you wondered why? He never shows up anywhere else. He didn't show up when you defeated the Asylum Demon? Why? Well because you weren't the only undead to make it out of there. He didn't show up after Taurus Demon. Why? Well because others like Solaire and Lautrec obviously got passed him too. However! You defeat the bosses guarding the Bellfry Gargoyles! And rung the first Bell of Awakening! Now THAT got his attention. Yes, Solaire managed to do it too, but now Oswald as an emissary for Velka has possible candidates as to who will be the chosen Undead.

It's pretty obvious Velka has an interest in what's going on in Lordran, it explains as to why Oswald is there. It's also interesting as to why the crow creatures are locked in the Painted World of Ariamis along with everything else the gods of Lordran found to be a threat to their reign. The Occult Ember was locked in there after a plot that failed to overthrow the gods was uncovered, Havel the Rock might have had something to do with it since in Anor Londo we find an Occult Club hidden away behind a secret illusory wall and Havel's armor, shield and weapon connecting him to the plot too. The fact is that everything that the gods hated and feared, Priscilla's Lifehunt ability, a dragon that has now become decayed and undead, mutated bloated undead, the biggest thing there is the Occult Ember which Occult is a power the gods fear. Why?

Well, it's dark magic, everything related to Gwyn and his family and his reign is SUN. Sunlight Spear. The covenant of the Firstborn is the Sunlight Covenant. Gwynevere is the Queen of Sunlight. Everything is Light in Gwyn's world. Occult is a power of darkness. I assume Gravelord Nito had a hand to play in the plot, and when he was found out he hid away in the Tomb of the Giants surrounded by the very thing Gwyn hated, the dark, which was somewhere Gwyn would not dare to go look for him. Now it's interesting to note that the painted world also has the equipment of a pardoner there, why? Why would a pardoner, be locked in the painted world? The poor guy obviously died there, it's really no mystery. Velka I assume had a hand to play in the plot against Gwyn and his Age of Fire too, for whatever reason she saw the gods as enemies. The fact that the only place that seems devoted to her, (Ariamis) is run down and ruined is obvious that Gwyn and his ilk didn't hold her or her image in high regard. It still leaves the question as to who Ariamis was. Or is. Maybe the Painted World was his vision of the desecrated image of Velka, maybe he wanted to dishonor her home and thus created a world in her domain's image and trapped everything connected to her there.
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You shall obtain the Demon Soul...and a power that is beyond human imagination..
The Maiden in Black's Blessing- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vByX90Ezn0s
#7Necro_Fear89Posted 7/11/2013 11:43:12 PM
(Continued)

Maybe Velka felt the gods overstepped their bounds, maybe they became too tyrannical, maybe she wanted humanity to find their own nature. We are told EVERYTHING came from the dark. The gods themselves came from the dark, they merely found the Lord souls and gained power from that, they destroyed the dragons who by nature were immortal, and with power they found and not gained destroyed that balance that by nature was perfect. It's the nature of fire to fade, leave a bonfire on for a while and the flame will start to fade without kindling. To me, it makes sense that darkness has to take it's course. Not because I agree with what Kaathe and the Darkwraiths are doing, because they obviously are stealing humanity and even Kaathe mentions how the Darkwraiths in New Londo are deranged and have gone AWOL. I agree because it's the nature for fire to fade, and the nature of humans to find their own reasoning not blinded by light from beings that they too once came from the dark.

Also have you ever wondered how Gwyn, the lord of SUNLIGHT.

Managed to conceive a son(Gwyndolin) with the powers of the moon, which is the complete opposite to what he stands for? All his other children have share his fire lineage, Gwyndolin is the only one who has domain over a dark power. I don't think Gwyndolin shares the same mother as the same of his other siblings, I do believe Gwyndolin and Kingseeker Frampt are both working together. Gwynevere is gone with Firegod Flann, she is no threat to him. The Firstborn of Gwyn lost his godhood, he holds no claim to Anor Londo anymore and has not been heard from since he lost his status. Gwyndolin is the only one who is left there, having all of Gwyn's knights and even powerful demi-gods like Ornstein and Smough under his command fooled by his illusions. I feel that we will have many answers once Dark Souls II is released, for now though speculation is all we have.

As for your darksign theory, well, I think it may be a curse of the natural order of things being disturbed. The Way of White is obviously freaked out about it, so much that they are doing executions on undead to eradicate them. The gods have done some very questionable things, for instance flooding New Londo. Why did the entire populace have to perish? Don't tell me it was because they wouldn't have had time to evacuate them all and it was faster to flood them all to stop the abyss. The fact that the ghosts there are so damn restless and vengeful leads to to believe they spite the gods for what they did. Who punishes the gods when THEY sin? Is not Velka the goddess of sin? Surely the gods can't go unpunished right?
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You shall obtain the Demon Soul...and a power that is beyond human imagination..
The Maiden in Black's Blessing- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vByX90Ezn0s
#8SpirasGuardianPosted 7/11/2013 11:52:58 PM
Wow, what a damn good thread.

You guys make me feel so stupid for not catching two thirds of all this stuff while playing. And I've played quite a lot. I'm guessing you've watched a fair amount of lore videos and put together your own theories from gathered info? Otherwise, you both deserve rewards for your observation skills haha. Either that, or I'm extremely dull, though I prefer to think I'm not that oblivious!

keep it coming guys!
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GT: Spiras Guardian
My Dark Souls channel- www.youtube.com/user/SpirasGuardianDkS
#9Necro_Fear89Posted 7/12/2013 12:07:46 AM
SpirasGuardian posted...
Wow, what a damn good thread.

You guys make me feel so stupid for not catching two thirds of all this stuff while playing. And I've played quite a lot. I'm guessing you've watched a fair amount of lore videos and put together your own theories from gathered info? Otherwise, you both deserve rewards for your observation skills haha. Either that, or I'm extremely dull, though I prefer to think I'm not that oblivious!

keep it coming guys!


I have watched and read everything I can get my hands on about the lore for both Demon's and Dark Souls. I try to not let my theories seem like they are fact though, there is a difference between fact and mere head cannon and speculation. A fact is something like Artorias never making it to Manus, it's supported by the game, speculation is Kirk helping the Fair Lady, it's hinted at but not told outright. Head cannon is Lautrec wanting to put Anastacia out of her misery cause he felt bad for her, it not only contradicts his character but doesn't make sense knowing what we know about Lautrec.

It's honestly not hard for you to learn too, just read up everything you can find. ENB and VaatiVydia are good lore buffs, I prefer Vaati though since his videos are based more around what the game implies. I think ENB's lore videos, while good and I enjoy them, have a little more speculation in the than actual facts. Still though, every point of view from different heads putting all their knowledge together could give us just that one answer we may be seeking. Can't tell you how many times a thumbed up comment on YouTube has given me some more material to research.
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You shall obtain the Demon Soul...and a power that is beyond human imagination..
The Maiden in Black's Blessing- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vByX90Ezn0s
#10Cura_of_LatriaPosted 7/12/2013 2:52:00 AM
SpirasGuardian posted...
Wow, what a damn good thread.

You guys make me feel so stupid for not catching two thirds of all this stuff while playing. And I've played quite a lot. I'm guessing you've watched a fair amount of lore videos and put together your own theories from gathered info? Otherwise, you both deserve rewards for your observation skills haha. Either that, or I'm extremely dull, though I prefer to think I'm not that oblivious!

keep it coming guys!


Yeah I'm with Spiras on this one ^_^ oh! Brb my popcorn is ready... *munch munch*
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GT: Cura of Latria