Skill and item build for Aghs AC Tiny

#1VoroVoraxVoragoPosted 3/20/2012 3:47:31 PM
I've had one very successful and one very unsuccessful game as Aghs AC Tiny. My skill build for my successful game was:

Q w q e q r q w w w r e e e s r

I started with stout tango salve and 3x gg

I picked up an early level of e for the bonus armor because the harass in lane warranted it. Also I figure that with the AC build you should be skilling your ult at 6 11 and 16 for the bonus damage, which helps a ton with last hitting.

As for my items I built power treads wand and then vanguard. This worked out fine in my first game but in my second game the vanguard put my aghanims scepter behind too much for me to be valuable in the mid game. I could only stun and toss for the most part, in which case I would have been better off going for arcane blink.

So my question for you all is, what is your skill and item build when going for AC tiny? Do you open with arcane + blink and then transition to AC and Aghs in the lategame, or do you have a more efficient way to get aghs and hyperstone so you can contribute to whacking things in the midgame too?

Thanks for the tips!
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Silver of the moon.
#2funkyfritterPosted 3/20/2012 3:52:59 PM
Aghs/ac isn't something you plan your entire game around. You should always start off with the standard build (max ava/toss asap while getting mana items and a fast blink) then transition into aghs/ac if the game is going to drag on for a while. Tiny is first and foremost a ganker, if you spend the early game farming you are wasting most of the hero's potential.
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And with that...pow! I'm gone!
#3TheShrike_Posted 3/20/2012 8:06:41 PM
My tiny build:

Skills:
Ava Toss Ava Toss Ava Toss Toss Ava Grow Armor Grow Armor Armor Armor Stats Grow Stats till end.

Items:
Start with 1 circlet, 3x gg branches, 2 sets of tangos, and a clarity
First major item is arcane boots. Then build magic wand, then bracers, then blink. If the enemy team has a bunch of people who don't blink or ww or have speed boost skills, turn the bracers into a jango, it can make a huge difference for chasing people down for ava toss while blink is cooling or disabled, and it provides some useful stats.

Then farm up point booster, then ogre axe, then staff of wizardry, then blade of alacrity. You now have aghs.

Next time you have ~800 gold, get rid of arcane boots in favor of power treads.

Get hyperstone. Get platemail. Get cuirass

If game is still going on, get butterfly. Consider mjollnir, satanic, or buriza after that. But really if you farm as far as butterfly you will probably get Ghost Scepter next so you can blink into their fountain, toss someone out for your team that's fountain camping to kill, and activate ghost scepter to survive the fountain.

Gameplay tips:

Once you have level 8 and arcane boots you can use avalanche and toss to kill every creep in avalanche radius. Use this for farming any lanes you want. You can do it to every wave as they approach a tower and stall a lane someone is trying to push pretty much indefinitely, while staying safely tower-hugging.
Once you have blink, you can blink next to some poor fool and avalanche then toss during avalanche duration. This will do like a thousand damage done correctly, or in other words it will totally murder most heroes who are less than level 10-12 or so. You can also attack a couple times while it's ongoing.
Blink -> avalanche and toss next to their team is a great team fight initiation.

Good allies to tiny: Pretty much anyone. You can carry, initiate, and gank once you've got a bunch of farm, so you fit in most lineups. People who desperately also need farm in the early game are not so good to have on your team, because ideally you'll be getting a lot of last hits for the arcane boots you need to farm and the blink dagger you need to gank well. Stunner allies can set you up to avatoss without needing to blink, and are therefore highly treasured.

Good enemies to fight: Anyone who likes to attack you at close range a lot. Most melee carries. Pudge tends to be hilarious because if your reflexes are good enough tiny's cast is fast enough that usually if you get hooked by Pudge you can toss him into the nearest creeps before he can dismember you, or alternatively you can ava toss him and totally kill him if it's early in the game. Worst enemies are ranged heroes with any form of disable or anything that eats your mana, things like Drow will ruin your day later in the game so make sure to blink avatoss them a lot early game so they aren't a problem later on. Lion who levels his mana-eating skill can be a nightmare for you to fight early game. Ember spirit will be a pain when he's implemented.
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Endure. In enduring, grow strong. (Planescape: Torment)
#4Cloud_6671Posted 3/22/2012 1:08:01 AM
Start off with QB and for easy last hits. Money spent on arcane is a waste imo, soul ring gives you more than enough mana with a little hp regen as well. Priority is getting dagger first after soul ring & boots if needed.

There really isn't any point in levelling up your ult late, you should get it at 6. Not only does it increase your damage and movespeed, it increases your toss damage, so levelling up anything else is a waste.



After soul ring boots and dagger you can pretty much do wtver you want. I prefer treads, ac, mjolnir, if I'm pubbing and don't trust the carry to actually carry. Otherwise, shivas.
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#5funkyfritterPosted 3/22/2012 1:49:41 AM
Cloud_6671 posted...
Start off with QB and for easy last hits. Money spent on arcane is a waste imo, soul ring gives you more than enough mana with a little hp regen as well. Priority is getting dagger first after soul ring & boots if needed.

There really isn't any point in levelling up your ult late, you should get it at 6. Not only does it increase your damage and movespeed, it increases your toss damage, so levelling up anything else is a waste.


Tiny is already one of the easiest heroes to last hit with, so quelling blade is redundant. Soul ring costs almost as much as arcane boots and cuts into your survivability significantly without any other regen items. Going arcane boots instead let's you spam without sacrificing health, gives you a nice early game movespeed bonus and gives mana to your allies as well.

As for leveling your ultimate, there's a very good reason to hold off on it until avalanche and toss are both maxed. Your combo is one of the strongest in the game, a big part of playing tiny is taking full advantage of those early levels when ava/toss will instantly kill most heroes. The movespeed bonus from a lvl 1 ultimate is negligible and leveling one of your spells adds more damage than the toss bonus damage. Ignoring your ultimate until your combo is maxed is essential in taking full advantage of your dominate early game.
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And with that...pow! I'm gone!
#6Cloud_6671Posted 3/22/2012 5:16:32 PM(edited)

From: funkyfritter | #005
As for leveling your ultimate, there's a very good reason to hold off on it until avalanche and toss are both maxed. Your combo is one of the strongest in the game, a big part of playing tiny is taking full advantage of those early levels when ava/toss will instantly kill most heroes.


Dunno if you didn't actually read my post or you're just quoting some crappy guide that was written years ago, grow increases your toss damage in addition to your melee damage so you're actually doing less damage at early levels.

Soul ring costs almost as much as arcane boots


This isn't EM, so no. And if you're selling your arcane boots anyways then again you're just wasting gold

and cuts into your survivability significantly without any other regen items


As opposed to having zero regen items with arcane boots? And it only cuts into your hp if you're spamming it on creeps. As you've already said its easy to get CS with tiny, you don't need to waste money on arcane boots to kill them harder, especially when you need to be saving for dagger.

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#7funkyfritterPosted 3/22/2012 6:18:15 PM
Cloud_6671 posted...
Dunno if you didn't actually read my post or you're just quoting some crappy guide that was written years ago, grow increases your toss damage in addition to your melee damage so you're actually doing less damage at early levels.

The damage increase from leveling grow is significantly less than what you gain from leveling toss or avalanche. You do more damage by maxing your active skills first, crunch the numbers if you don't believe me.

This isn't EM, so no. And if you're selling your arcane boots anyways then again you're just wasting gold

Soul ring costs 800 gold, upgrading your boots costs 1000 gold. That 200 gold difference is more than paid for by giving your allies mana, increasing your movespeed and letting you gank constantly without hurting yourself.

As opposed to having zero regen items with arcane boots? And it only cuts into your hp if you're spamming it on creeps. As you've already said its easy to get CS with tiny, you don't need to waste money on arcane boots to kill them harder, especially when you need to be saving for dagger.

In order to gank frequently you'll have to activate your soul ring every engagement, in which case going for arcane boots will indeed result in more health regeneration. I have no idea why you brought up spamming abilities on creeps, if you're sitting in a lane as tiny you're doing it wrong.
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And with that...pow! I'm gone!
#8Cloud_6671Posted 3/27/2012 6:04:14 AM(edited)

From: funkyfritter | #007
I have no idea why you brought up spamming abilities on creeps


From: TheShrike_ | #003
Once you have level 8 and arcane boots you can use avalanche and toss to kill every creep in avalanche radius. Use this for farming any lanes you want. You can do it to every wave as they approach a tower and stall a lane someone is trying to push pretty much indefinitely, while staying safely tower-hugging.


Lol...



And why even bother lying lol, the numbers aren't going to change simply because you say "is significantly less". I've "crunched" them before and you're wrong.

And unless you're just flat out bad, arcane boots doesn't result in more health regen. Especially since it's an item you build into. The money you save on tangos/salves by buying ring of regen adds to more than 200. And if you engage in a gank once every minute, 2hp/sec * 60 seconds * base regen = ~150

And then theres the gold you waste from selling your obsolete arcane boots later on..
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#9funkyfritterPosted 3/27/2012 7:00:45 AM
Cloud_6671 posted...
From: TheShrike_ | #003
Once you have level 8 and arcane boots you can use avalanche and toss to kill every creep in avalanche radius. Use this for farming any lanes you want. You can do it to every wave as they approach a tower and stall a lane someone is trying to push pretty much indefinitely, while staying safely tower-hugging.
Lol...


What does what he says have to do with our discussion? I never said you should use abilities on creeps.

And why even bother lying lol, the numbers aren't going to change simply because you say "is significantly less". I've "crunched" them before and you're wrong.

Combo damage with level 4 toss, level 3 avalanche and level 1 grow:
300 * 1.35 + 260 * 2 = 925

Combo damage with level 3 toss, level 4 avalanche and level 1 grow:
225 * 1.35 + 300 * 2 = 904

Combo damage with level 4 toss, level 4 avalanche and level 0 grow:
300 * 1.20 + 300 * 2 = 960

It's also worth noting that the fourth level of toss adds half as much damage as the previous ones, so the disparity is even larger at levels 6 and 7 if you level grow immediately.

And unless you're just flat out bad, arcane boots doesn't result in more health regen. Especially since it's an item you build into. The money you save on tangos/salves by buying ring of regen adds to more than 200. And if you engage in a gank once every minute, 2hp/sec * 60 seconds * base regen = ~150

Generally when you gank you'll either take no damage or a lot of damage. Your regen isn't doing anything if it's the former and 3 hp/s isn't going to let you gank again very quickly in the latter case, so you're still using salves. More importantly, you're paying the life upfront with soul ring. Tiny isn't the bulkiest hero to begin with thanks to his low armor, giving yourself 150 less maximum health every fight limits your diving potential and makes you a lot squishier. Forgoing arcane boots also means your maximum mana is still extremely low as well, with a soul ring you won't have to mana to combo twice in a fight early on.

And then theres the gold you waste from selling your obsolete arcane boots later on..

Arcane boots won't be obsolete unless the game goes so late the cost of selling them becomes insignificant. Tiny's mana pool never gets very large and the extra mana regen for your whole team is a huge boon once traveling as a group becomes the norm. Replacing arcane boots doesn't make any sense unless you want travels or you don't have any item slots left to fill, soul ring will become obsolete long before then.
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And with that...pow! I'm gone!
#10TheShrike_Posted 3/27/2012 12:04:42 PM
Using both abilities on creeps when they're maxed instantly kills all the creeps. If you want to stop something from pushing with a set of creep waves that've been pulled, or there's a lane that's been pushing and has a ton of enemy creeps and you want to get some gold between ganks it's pretty effective to just use both of the nukes to kill all the creeps instantly instead of attacking and last-hitting for a longer time. I wouldn't ever use nukes on creeps while "laning" or anything, because when you are staying in a lane you don't have the mana regen to support it and you don't want to push closer to enemy towers anyways. As soon as you do have the mana and regen that would allow you to support it (arcane boots) you should probably be running around engaging in ganks and fights, not laning. It's not really economical or necessary against a single creep wave anyways.

Nuking the creeps can be part of a push, but it's usually better to save the spells for enemies who show up to stop you pushing. If their entire team is all dead and you want to push AS FAST AS POSSIBLE then maybe.
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Endure. In enduring, grow strong. (Planescape: Torment)