I don't get the balancing in this game.

#1jzp920Posted 4/4/2012 9:34:27 AM
Someone needs to explain it to me. First you got invoker. I can safely say that this hero is not balanced in any way at any level. At pro games he has a 100% pick/ban rate, and even at pubs he stomps hard because he got the most utility in the game thanks to having 9 goddamn spells along with being able to deal a hilarious amount of AoE damage and he gets a ridiculous amount of free stats. Then you got nature's prophet who also has a 100% pick/ban rate thanks to insane pushing power, great farming capabilities and some of the best ganks in the game thanks to a global teleport on a lol 20 second cooldown.

Then on the other side you get stuff like sniper. This hero brings nothing to the table another hero can't do twice as good and he has been this way since the very beginning. So why hasn't he gotten buffs of some kind yet? We also have alchemist who is widely recognized as one of the worst heroes in the game, so why doesn't he get a buff?

Then you got interesting heroes like ursa. This hero is kind of interesting to me because he almost never gets picked in pro games but pubstomps amazingly hard. He makes me wonder what level of play this game is going to be balanced around. If they're balancing around pro level he needs buffs because he kind of sucks. If they're balancing around pubs he needs nerfs because he just demolishes people there. Huskar is kind of in the same corner.
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Steam: sun_nova
PSN ID: sun-nova
#2Sub TankPosted 4/4/2012 9:47:47 AM
Ursa + Surge
Not broken
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#3ElevatorsSCPosted 4/4/2012 9:53:33 AM
You are over exaggerating how often Invoker and Prophet are banned in pro tournaments. Yes they are banned often, but it isn't 100% automatic. They are strong heroes that's for sure, but as more and more heroes get released every week that people feel need to be banned the more we will see them get through the draft.

Also, I have seen sniper get picked in a recent pro level tournament as well. The problem with sniper is how easy it is to gank him, but he is definitely one of those glass cannons in the late game.

Ursa pubstomps because bad pub players often don't understand that you can't go 1 on 1 against Ursa in a melee fight, similarly to how Huskar is often a pubstomp hero because he too is very difficult to beat in a 1 on 1 situation due to how hard it is to calculate how much more damage he is going to start doing to you as his passive kicks in. When you see Ursa, you run the other direction unless you have a couple of stuns to use on him while focusing him down.

In my opinion the game should be balanced for the pro level, just like any highly competitive game.
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eLevatoRs
#4funkyfritterPosted 4/4/2012 10:22:59 AM
jzp920 posted...
Then on the other side you get stuff like sniper. This hero brings nothing to the table another hero can't do twice as good and he has been this way since the very beginning.

You lose credibility when you say things like this. Sniper has undergone several revisions and has been all over the place in terms of power level. In the very beginning he had over 2000 range.

That aside, while the game isn't perfectly balanced it's pretty good considering how many heroes there are. Competitive pick orders aren't an indicator of raw power level. Nature's prophet for example is always picked or banned because he fits on any team composition and can fill multiple roles, not because he outclasses everyone else.
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#5SpeedHunter020Posted 4/4/2012 10:23:46 AM
Invoker is pretty tough to play though. His nukes are pretty weak if you don't know how to skill him properly and you have to invoke the other skills after using your first two. Though I guess if someone picks him, he/she would know how to do those things. <_<
#6jzp920(Topic Creator)Posted 4/4/2012 10:35:40 AM(edited)
ElevatorsSC posted...
You are over exaggerating how often Invoker and Prophet are banned in pro tournaments. Yes they are banned often, but it isn't 100% automatic. They are strong heroes that's for sure, but as more and more heroes get released every week that people feel need to be banned the more we will see them get through the draft.

No, no I'm not. In fact I dare you to fine me a pro game where invoker isn't either picked or banned. It's going to be very hard. Maybe you'll find one but he comes very close to a 100% ban rate. To me that signifies something. Prophet you might be able to find a pro game or two where he isn't picked or banned but again it's going to be very tough and his pick/ban rate is still in the nineties.

Also, I have seen sniper get picked in a recent pro level tournament as well. The problem with sniper is how easy it is to gank him, but he is definitely one of those glass cannons in the late game.

Was this a serious game for money or just a scrim where people weren't playing seriously? because I just can't see why you would pick sniper over say drow ranger in a serious game. Sure if he gets a ton of farm he can carry late game but why would you pick a hero that's ridiculously easy to shut down as your carry when you could pick something like AM who has a build in blink and rapes teams thrice as hard as sniper with equal farm?

Ursa pubstomps because bad pub players often don't understand that you can't go 1 on 1 against Ursa in a melee fight, similarly to how Huskar is often a pubstomp hero because he too is very difficult to beat in a 1 on 1 situation due to how hard it is to calculate how much more damage he is going to start doing to you as his passive kicks in. When you see Ursa, you run the other direction unless you have a couple of stuns to use on him while focusing him down.

Yeah I know. I wasn't trying to say that ursa or huskar are OP in games where there's teamwork between the players, I was just saying that these heroes are interesting to me because their existence proposes a question: Do we want to have this game balanced around pro level and risk Ursa and huskar getting like 80% win ratios in pubs or do we want to account for lower skill levels and have these heroes be almost useless in pro level games?
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Steam: sun_nova
PSN ID: sun-nova
#7jzp920(Topic Creator)Posted 4/4/2012 10:34:53 AM
funkyfritter posted...
You lose credibility when you say things like this. Sniper has undergone several revisions and has been all over the place in terms of power level. In the very beginning he had over 2000 range.

I was talking about dota 2 since I don't play dota actually. But anyway, the point is that sniper sucks, has sucked for quite a long time now on all skill levels, and everyone knows it so I'm wondering why he hasn't received buffs.

That aside, while the game isn't perfectly balanced it's pretty good considering how many heroes there are. Competitive pick orders aren't an indicator of raw power level. Nature's prophet for example is always picked or banned because he fits on any team composition and can fill multiple roles, not because he outclasses everyone else.

I don't really buy that. If a hero has too much utility he's overpowered in relation to other heroes too. This game isn't just about raw numbers. the fact that prophet can fill so many roles and fit in pretty much every team composition is a balance problem to me too, because it means that he's going to outshine many picks because of it and is practically guaranteed to be one of the first picks or bans in most games. I think having too much utility is one of the problems with invoker too, but he also gets an insane amount of free stats on top.
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Steam: sun_nova
PSN ID: sun-nova
#8mahgah91Posted 4/4/2012 10:37:42 AM

From: funkyfritter | #004
You lose credibility when you say things like this. Sniper has undergone several revisions and has been all over the place in terms of power level. In the very beginning he had over 2000 range.

That aside, while the game isn't perfectly balanced it's pretty good considering how many heroes there are. Competitive pick orders aren't an indicator of raw power level. Nature's prophet for example is always picked or banned because he fits on any team composition and can fill multiple roles, not because he outclasses everyone else.


Sniper is the worst carry in the game. The things Sniper brings to the table late game other heroes do better.
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#9funkyfritterPosted 4/4/2012 11:07:38 AM
jzp920 posted...
I was talking about dota 2 since I don't play dota actually. But anyway, the point is that sniper sucks, has sucked for quite a long time now on all skill levels, and everyone knows it so I'm wondering why he hasn't received buffs.

Dota 2 is currently in the process of having everything from dota ported over, they're effectively the same game. I agree that sniper is weak right now, but when the developers are focusing on getting everything from dota into the sequel it's easy to see why he hasn't been buffed. So far there has been one balance patch in dota 2, once the porting process is complete buffs and nerfs will start up again and these issues should get fixed.

I don't really buy that. If a hero has too much utility he's overpowered in relation to other heroes too. This game isn't just about raw numbers. the fact that prophet can fill so many roles and fit in pretty much every team composition is a balance problem to me too, because it means that he's going to outshine many picks because of it and is practically guaranteed to be one of the first picks or bans in most games. I think having too much utility is one of the problems with invoker too, but he also gets an insane amount of free stats on top.

While prophet may be able to fill multiple roles, that doesn't mean he's the best at all of them. If you need a jungler chen is better, if you need a solo laner windrunner is better and enchantress fulfills the pushing ranged dps role better. He's great in draft mode because picking him first hides your strategy, but that advantage only exists in specific game modes and some hero will always hold the title of "most flexible pick." Invoker was too strong, and he got nerfed in the only balance patch to grace dota 2 so far. He may still be too powerful in this metagame, but the game is balanced around the original since that's where dota 2 will end up once all the heroes are implemented. In competitive dota invoker is rarely picked and almost never banned, so he should become a lot less threatening as more options are introduced.
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And with that...pow! I'm gone!
#10Des_ProxyPosted 4/4/2012 11:18:45 AM
hold the phone, is alchemist really recognized as one of the worst heroes? eh?
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