There is a disturbing lack of MKB on Sniper

#1blackmagus5Posted 3/30/2013 1:40:36 PM
and a disturbing overabundance of Daedalus/Desolator
http://dotabuff.com/heroes/sniper/items
Here's the problem with this build and why alternatives (such as Maelstrom/Mjollnir + MKB) is better imo:

1. Items like Desolator/Daedalus work by adding a percent of your hero's DPS (for example, Daedalus increases DPS by 35%; for Deso % increase depends on enemy's armor). The problem is, Sniper's base DPS is rather pathetic. At lvl 25 with no items, his DPS is barely over 200. This is very apparent by comparing this to real DPS heroes like drow who has almost twice this (380) and sven with ult (460); this disparity in DPS only grows as you add in items.

2. You can't crit buildings. You can, however, mini-bash them. Towers don't have magic resistance so this adds a sizable amount of DPS; in fact, I found that MKB does slightly more DPS to tier 3 towers than Daedalus+Desolator.

3. Daedalus doesn't give true-strike. This is most obviously useful against heroes with evasion or miss skills, making MKB the clearly better for DPS in this case. What may not be so obvious is that MKB also negates the 25% miss chance shooting uphill. Given sniper's large attack range as well as an ability that gives sight uphill, this is really useful. What are you going to do without MKB? You're either going to have to walk all the way uphill and waste your range or deal with the 25% miss chance.

4. MKB mini-bash goes through magic immunity. Note that this isn't true for sniper's skill headshot (which does physical damage but magical bash), so MKB provides a way to cancel channeling of enemies with BKB.

5. Mini-bash cancels animations. MKB adds 21% chance to bash, making him mini-bash more often than not (61%). Note that even though the mini-bash from MKB is super short, it's still a bash meaning it will cancel animations dead in their tracks (note that I'm not 100% on the details, so if someone wants to elaborate, feel free). With MKB+headshot+decent attack speed, the enemy hero you're attacking is going to get super annoyed when he isn't able to get his spell/attack animations off because they keep getting interrupted.

6. A build like Mjollnir + MKB has comparable DPS incrase/gold to Desolator + Daedalus. The exact specifics largely depend on enemy armor; low armor enemies naturally favor Desolator/Daedalus as Desolator is better against low armor enemies and the special effects of chain-lightning/mini-bash deal magical damage, which is more effective in comparison to normal damage against high-armored opponents.

The point is that the builds have similar damage output per gold spent, but Mjollnir+MKB has much better side-effects:
Chain Lightning + Static Charge + True Sight + Mini-bash vs
-6 armor on one enemy

Not saying that Deso/Crits isn't passable or even decent (otherwise people probably would've figured it out by now); just saying that you guys should consider a different build like Maelstrom + MKB, or if you're feeling brave, Mask of Madness + MKB (since sniper has so much range, he should be able to stay out of harm's way most of the time) for your DPS items.


tl;dr : Desolator/Daedalus is overrated on sniper because his base DPS is pathetic. Instead, people should try something like Maelstrom/Mjollnir + MKB, or, if they're feeling ballsy, Mask of Madness + MKB.
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#2PooiPosted 3/30/2013 2:04:05 PM
True strike + Headshot has bad synergy.
#3pyrotech1588Posted 3/30/2013 2:06:32 PM
I think the better solution is to just not pick sniper
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#4Volinor7Posted 3/30/2013 2:42:37 PM
pyrotech1588 posted...
I think the better solution is to just not pick sniper


Came into the topic to say this
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#5Bald_MoneyPosted 3/30/2013 3:09:10 PM
I think you're mixing up damage per second and actual damage. Sniper does around 218 damage per hit at level 25, so unless he has a base attack time of 1.00 his damage per second is much higher. And I'm pretty sure he has pretty fast attack speed due to his agility growth.
#6drkkratosPosted 3/30/2013 3:32:08 PM
Ya like Pooi said.
In dota 1, headshot won't proc unless it was skilled after you got MKB (truestrike from MKB overrides the headshot, though I guess you could disable it).
Also mkb anti-evasion is kinda redundant as you can't evade any headshot procs anyway.
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#7blackmagus5(Topic Creator)Posted 3/30/2013 3:50:26 PM(edited)
Pooi posted...
True strike + Headshot has bad synergy.


This is not the case in dota 2; many 'bugs' due to engine limitations in dota 1 like this have been removed (ex: If you buy daedalus on phantom assassin now, and her ult and the item proc, her ult will override, whereas before the item might override depending on when you skilled it).

Edit: just saw last post. Sorry for misinterpreting... I thought you were talking about old dota 1 problems with MKB. Totally didn't know headshots couldn't be evaded... I saw it on the wiki and just kind of ignored it.

Bald_Money posted...
I think you're mixing up damage per second and actual damage. Sniper does around 218 damage per hit at level 25, so unless he has a base attack time of 1.00 his damage per second is much higher. And I'm pretty sure he has pretty fast attack speed due to his agility growth.


Nope, I'm confident in my calculations; you're the one getting mixed up. The number 218 you got was just from adding his damage from headshot to his base damage; the problem is headshot doesn't proc on every attack, only 40% of them, so his real lv 25 damage is 128+90*.4 = 164. Multiply this by his attacks/s of 1.23 to get 201 DPS.

As for people saying just don't pick sniper... first, is he really considered that bad of a hero? His win% isn't that far below 50%... Second, you may still wind up getting him in all random, and there's still a ton of people that like to play him. I'm of the opinion that he's pretty decent as long as he can stay out of harm's way; maybe not OP like drow, but still fun.
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One question, my unworthy opponent, what do you think you're doing? Watering your garden? An interesting way of spending your last few minutes.
#8c2water099Posted 3/30/2013 4:00:54 PM
I agree with you, especially after I kept blinding light the enemy Sniper and PA in my recent close game. =)
#9blade6321Posted 3/30/2013 4:54:10 PM
blackmagus5 posted...
Pooi posted...
His win% isn't that far below 50%... OP like drow


You were doing so well...
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#10elysdeonPosted 3/30/2013 5:02:58 PM
Everyone always seems to forgot in discussions with desolator that it doesn't just increase your damage, but everyone else on your teams damage as well. Considering that sniper has the longest attack range in the game it's pretty easy to make sure that whoever is being focused on gets the debuff on them (which lasts for 15 seconds mind you)
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