Who says the Stormcloaks can't handle the Thalmor?

#11omnimonroxPosted 6/22/2012 6:27:00 AM
Curved_Sw0rd posted...
Hard to take on Skyrim when you can't move troops into it rapidly.

The Jerrals in Cyrodiil

Morrowind won't comply with the Dominion (I hope)

Hammerfell and High Rock are Imperial turf.

And the Sea of Ghosts is iced over.


They ain't gettin' in, boy.


This. Mountains are some of the hardest obstacles to overcome for an invading army.

Real Life Example: Hannibal would have crushed Rome when he tried to invade Italy, if it hadn't been for the Alps (He lost nearly half of his army). As it was, he eventually lost a war of attrition.
---
Official Tyranitar of the B/W Boards
White FC: 0432 7990 7912; PSBG Steel Gym Record: 1-1
#12daveliciousPosted 6/22/2012 6:50:32 AM
Lets not forget that the reason the thalmor left hammerfell was not because they were pushed out militarily by the redguards. Both sides fought to a standstill... the thalmor leaving hammerfell was a peace treaty concession. At the end of the conflict, hammerfell was left devastated.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:White-Gold_Concordat

As for the stormcloaks. 1/20th of the legion is roughly a match for the entire stormcloak army... the entire legion backed by the nords was only strong enough to push the thalmor out of their land (as in destroying the entire thalmor army assigned to cyrodiil... not just a treaty agreement like with hammerfell).

I don't see how you come to the conclusion that the stormcloak army can handle the thalmor when they are only a match to 1/20th the force that roughly matches the thalmor.

Even if you assume a stormcloak victory means the entire skyrim legion contingent joins the stormcloak army after the stormcloaks rule skyrim... that only doubles their might. They would still be 1/10 of a force that could match the thalmor.
---
PSN: Davelicious GT: Davelicious46
NEW SETUP: http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee174/Davelicious406/DSC02294.jpg
#13Ajd_KingPosted 6/22/2012 6:53:31 AM
You want the Thalmor?

You want the Thalmor!?

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE THALMOR!
---
Eat those bloody pants and throw the goddamn onion!
#14ChunhwaPosted 6/22/2012 7:03:55 AM(edited)
davelicious posted...
Lets not forget that the reason the thalmor left hammerfell was not because they were pushed out militarily by the redguards. Both sides fought to a standstill... the thalmor leaving hammerfell was a peace treaty concession. At the end of the conflict, hammerfell was left devastated.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:White-Gold_Concordat

As for the stormcloaks. 1/20th of the legion is roughly a match for the entire stormcloak army... the entire legion backed by the nords was only strong enough to push the thalmor out of their land (as in destroying the entire thalmor army assigned to cyrodiil... not just a treaty agreement like with hammerfell).

I don't see how you come to the conclusion that the stormcloak army can handle the thalmor when they are only a match to 1/20th the force that roughly matches the thalmor.

Even if you assume a stormcloak victory means the entire skyrim legion contingent joins the stormcloak army after the stormcloaks rule skyrim... that only doubles their might. They would still be 1/10 of a force that could match the thalmor.


(SUPER MEGA SPOILERS BELOW)














You're forgetting something very important. Stormcloaks being victorious in Skyrim means that the Dragonborn is on their side. Which by extension means that Odahviing is on their side. Dragon > mortal armies. Especially when you consider that this particular dragon is probably the strongest in existence after Alduin is out of the picture.

Even more so when you consider that only a dragon or dragonborn can kill a dragon for good, and the dragonborn witnessed the shout Alduin used to bring dragons back to life, so he knows it (Slen Tiid Vo). So the Stormcloaks have the Dragonborn, who slew the world-eater, and an unkillable dragon on their side. I think that evens the odds a bit.
---
One footstep among many is silent. One footstep alone is deafening.
#15zeroboboPosted 6/22/2012 7:02:04 AM
davelicious posted...
Lets not forget that the reason the thalmor left hammerfell was not because they were pushed out militarily by the redguards. Both sides fought to a standstill... the thalmor leaving hammerfell was a peace treaty concession. At the end of the conflict, hammerfell was left devastated.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:White-Gold_Concordat

As for the stormcloaks. 1/20th of the legion is roughly a match for the entire stormcloak army... the entire legion backed by the nords was only strong enough to push the thalmor out of their land (as in destroying the entire thalmor army assigned to cyrodiil... not just a treaty agreement like with hammerfell).

I don't see how you come to the conclusion that the stormcloak army can handle the thalmor when they are only a match to 1/20th the force that roughly matches the thalmor.

Even if you assume a stormcloak victory means the entire skyrim legion contingent joins the stormcloak army after the stormcloaks rule skyrim... that only doubles their might. They would still be 1/10 of a force that could match the thalmor.


you seem to have a very specific misunderstanding of things. what happened to hammerfell was that the empire gave up control of it because of the white-gold concordat. some legion deserted the legion and helped hammerfell form a resistance that has pretty much kicked the thalmor out.

the size of an army doesnt mean jack. sure the stormcloaks arent going to march into dominion lands. but they will absolutely be able to keep control of skyrim.

for the thalmor to even attempt at invading skyrim, they pretty much have to go in through boat. which would be a horrible tactical choice based on how long it'd take to get supplies, with the exception of near solitude they'd be landing in the harshest environments in skyrim. they are not nords, the cold would get to them.

so having unsafe supply lines, extreme cold high elves couldnt tolerate, and fighting an army that already won a guerilla war and will fight another easily. yeah its not going to happen.
#16daveliciousPosted 6/22/2012 7:04:51 AM
@Chunhwa

That's all well and good... but it doesn't really address the issue that the stormcloak army itself isn't strong enough to defeat the thalmor. The stormcloak army doesn't have its own dragon independent of the dragonborn, so the point is moot.

Since the player chooses the side (which is kind of the point of the debate here), and essentially can single-handedly win the war for one side or the other... for the sake of the argument we need to omit the perks the dragonborn gives to joining one side or the other.
---
PSN: Davelicious GT: Davelicious46
NEW SETUP: http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee174/Davelicious406/DSC02294.jpg
#17zeroboboPosted 6/22/2012 7:08:12 AM
Chunhwa posted...
davelicious posted...
Lets not forget that the reason the thalmor left hammerfell was not because they were pushed out militarily by the redguards. Both sides fought to a standstill... the thalmor leaving hammerfell was a peace treaty concession. At the end of the conflict, hammerfell was left devastated.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:White-Gold_Concordat

As for the stormcloaks. 1/20th of the legion is roughly a match for the entire stormcloak army... the entire legion backed by the nords was only strong enough to push the thalmor out of their land (as in destroying the entire thalmor army assigned to cyrodiil... not just a treaty agreement like with hammerfell).

I don't see how you come to the conclusion that the stormcloak army can handle the thalmor when they are only a match to 1/20th the force that roughly matches the thalmor.

Even if you assume a stormcloak victory means the entire skyrim legion contingent joins the stormcloak army after the stormcloaks rule skyrim... that only doubles their might. They would still be 1/10 of a force that could match the thalmor.


(SUPER MEGA SPOILERS BELOW)














You're forgetting something very important. Stormcloaks being victorious in Skyrim means that the Dragonborn is on their side. Which by extension means that Odahviing is on their side. Dragon > mortal armies. Especially when you consider that this particular dragon is probably the strongest in existence after Alduin is out of the picture.

Even more so when you consider that only a dragon or dragonborn can kill a dragon for good, and the dragonborn witnessed the shout Alduin used to bring dragons back to life, so he knows it (Slen Tiid Vo). So the Stormcloaks have the Dragonborn, who slew the world-eater, and an unkillable dragon on their side. I think that evens the odds a bit.


well lets not go down that route. the dragonborn is, in theory, just a man with the great ability to shout. the stormcloaks dont need the dragonborn to repeal an invasion, skyrim would be absolutely horrible to invade. it'd be like the germans trying to invade russia in WW2. they'd lose more troops to starvation and the cold than gunfire.

plus the whole numbers of stormcloaks thing where he seems to be pulling that 1/20th thing out of his ass, but even so. if the stormcloaks won the war, then all the nords who were in the legion they arent going to leave their homes
#18ChunhwaPosted 6/22/2012 7:11:14 AM(edited)
davelicious posted...
@Chunhwa

That's all well and good... but it doesn't really address the issue that the stormcloak army itself isn't strong enough to defeat the thalmor. The stormcloak army doesn't have its own dragon independent of the dragonborn, so the point is moot.

Since the player chooses the side (which is kind of the point of the debate here), and essentially can single-handedly win the war for one side or the other... for the sake of the argument we need to omit the perks the dragonborn gives to joining one side or the other.


On the contrary, because the war would otherwise still be in a stalemate without the Dragonborn's influence, I think that we should assume the Dragonborn's support for whichever side we're talking about fighting the Thalmor. A situation where the Stormcloaks would be fighting the Thalmor without the Dragonborn wouldn't occur, because the Dragonborn's support is needed to reach that point in the first place. Likewise with the Imperials.
---
One footstep among many is silent. One footstep alone is deafening.
#19_Pingu_Posted 6/22/2012 7:11:00 AM(edited)
Erm where did the Imperial Legion in Skyrim only being 1/20 of their forces come from? You'd think the Empire would have used quite a lot of their forces to try and hold one of the most powerful provinces they have left.
---
Be happy and stuff
#20Ajd_KingPosted 6/22/2012 7:11:29 AM
_Pingu_ posted...
Erm where did the Imperial Legion in Skyrim only being 1/20 of their forces come from? You'd think the Empire would have used quite a lot of their forces to try and hold one of the most powerful provinces. they have left.


The Dominion and the Empire are massing on each other's borders. If the Empire was to up and leave, the Dominion could easily sweap upwards and take the unguarded Cyrodiil. Ulfric knew the Empire would be forced to keep men down south to hold back the elves, so he exploited that weakness and struck when the Empire didn't have much men to spare.
---
Eat those bloody pants and throw the goddamn onion!