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The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Useful Info v1.1

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theonyxphoenix
(Topic Creator)
Posted 11/21/2012 10:02:27 AM
LordTrinen posted...
Really great job onyx. That must have taken a really long time to put together. Congrats. How do you request a sticky?

But I should point out one small error. I posted about it in v1.0 but I guessed you missed it. When I posted my original Fast Travel Guide, the one your table is built on, I made a mistake with the Markarth/Riften time. It should be 24:45 (24.75 hours). My fault for overlooking this originally. If you can fix that small error this guide will be perfect.


Fixed. Thanks for the sticky requests everyone and the hard work of this board community. It took a while to compile and organize the info, but would have taken me x10 longer had I not had the testing and contribution help. Not to get 1.0 removed. You can also request a sticky to be removed the same way.
obishawn
Posted 11/21/2012 10:11:08 AM
Nanaya27 posted...
Thanks for compiling all of this info, and even bothering to update it with more, too.

However, skimming this I found a mistake or two in the stealth section.

First, the silence perk does not equate to 100% muffle. I know this because I have an Nightblade who has this perk, and is still detected while invisible by high level vampires when getting too close. By equipping Shrouded Boots or casting the Muffle spell, the same vampires cannot detect me at all while invisible.

Also, having certain spells equipped does cause light that is detrimental to sneaking (I mean just having them equipped, not necessarily charging or casting). I found this out by trying to sneak up to someone without invisibility on my mage, seeing how far I could get. I could literally stand in the same place and have the eye open when I had Incinerate equipped in both hands, then equip Invisibility in both hands and have the eye close. To be sure it was light and not noise that Incinerate was generating, I cast Invisibility the switched back to double Incinerate, and was not detected even when sneaking only a few feet from the NPC. This character was wearing a custom muffle enchantment and had the quiet casting perk, by the way.


I'm quite certain vampires are an exception to the rule. They have powers of perception that far surpass other enemies, even dragons. Onyx's findings are consistent with my own experiences. I've always figured the vampire AI just allowed for them to detect the player no matter what.
---
Winter is coming
LordTrinen
Posted 11/21/2012 10:19:23 AM
Rikashi posted...
Go to message detail, the request sticky option should be at the bottom.

Sticky requested as well, awesome work Onyx!


I don't see a sticky option. Maybe my level or whatever is too low. What level do you need to be at?
Curved_Sw0rd
Posted 11/21/2012 10:23:33 AM
This deserves a sticky!
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How about a nice big cup of shut the f*** up?
LordTrinen
Posted 11/21/2012 10:27:41 AM
Wow. I think that is the fastest I've ever seen a sticky get approved. Congrats again onyx.
Nanaya27
Posted 11/21/2012 10:35:26 AM
theonyxphoenix posted...
Hmm. Then SIlence would at least have to be 50% Muffle and remove the movement penalty, but in my experience with controlled testing Silence = 100%

It may be a case of high level vampires having such a high detection/hearing stat that you need more than 100% muffle to sneak past them undetected. This could be tested by having a character with exactly 100% muffle and invisibility try to sneak up on a Nightlord Vampire (which is the variety that detected me on my Nightblade).

But it is definitely not a case of them detecting you no matter what, as the same character with Silence+Muffled Movement+Shrouded Boots could not be detected by the same vampire while invisible. The only difference was the boots, and they only thing the added was a 50% muffle effect. The previous boots were also light armor and thus weightless since I had the unhindered perk, so it's not that.

Were you visible with no Invisibility and no equipped spells?

I wasn't detected in that situation, no.

I didn't test every spell, and I didn't record my results, but from what I remember it went like this (with all spells being equipped in both hands):

Incinerate: detected
Invisibility: not detected
Close Wounds: Not detected
Turn Undead: detected
Magelight: not detected
Candlelight: not detected
Conjure Dremora Lord: not detected
Pacify: not detected
Empty Hands: not detected

I may have remembered a few wrong, but I definitely remember Incinerate, Invisibility, and the light spells correctly.

All of this was while both my character and the NPC were stationary, and I was not invisible. The change was immediate, as soon as I switched spells the eye either opened or closed (depending on the spell).

Anyways, this should be pretty easy to replicate the next time I'm on my mage. Just need to find a nice stationary and isolated NPC.
Nanaya27
Posted 11/21/2012 1:43:54 PM

(edited)
Okay, so I tested muffle against a Nightmaster vampire, with the same Nightblade. Definitely debunked the "can always detect you" theory. But it appears I was mistaken, even without Shrouded Boots he could not detect me while I was invisible. There must have been some other factor with the previous Nightlord Vampire, or I may have misremembered.


However, I also went and tested every spell for penalties to detection. I used the Imperial Guard Jailor who sits by himself all day in the entrance to the Riften jail, making sure to chose an indoor location to avoid time of day and ambient light shenanigans.

This is the character I tested this on: http://skyrimcalculator.com/213106

As you can see, he has 100 in Sneak, but no perks in that skill, and has the Quiet Casting perk. He was wearing gloves enchanted with Fortify Sneak 40% and boots custom enchanted with Muffle. With "sheathed" hands I could very close, to the point my character's face was about 3 feet away from the guard's. I tested all spells at that distance without moving or adjusting the camera (pointed directly to the guard's neck).

Here are the results:

Sheathed: not detected

Unarmed: not detected

Alteration
-Candlight: not detected
-Detect Dead: not detected
-Detect Life: not detected
-Dragonhide: detected
-Ebonyflesh: detected
-Equilibrium: not detected
-Ironflesh: Detected
-Magelight: not detected
-Mass paralysis: Detected
-Oakflesh: Detected
-Paralyze: detected
-Stoneflesh: detected
-Telekinesis: not detected
-Transmure: not detected
-Waterbreathing: not detected

Illusion
-Call to Arms: detected
-Calm: detected
-Clairyoance: not detected
-Courage: detected
-Fear: not detected
-Frenzy: not detected
-Fury: not detected
-Harmony: detected
-Hysteria: not detected
-Invisibility: not detected
-Mayhem: not detected
-Muffle: not detected
-Pacify: detected (remebered this one wrong)
-Rally: Detected
-Rout: not detected
-Vision of the Tenth Eye: not detected

Destruction
-Arniel's Convection: detected
-Blizzard: detected
-Chain Lightning: not detected
-Fire Rune: detected
-Fire Storm: detected
-Fireball: detected
-Firebolt: detected
-Flame Cloak: detected
-Flames: detected
-Frost Cloak: detected
-Frost Rune: Detected
-Frostbite: detected
-Ice Spike: detected
-Ice Storm: Detected
-Icy Spear: detected
-Incinerate: detected
-Lightning Bolt: not detected
-Lightning Cloak: not detected
-Lightning Rune: not detected
-Lightning Storm: detected
-Sparks: not detected
-Thunderbolt: not detected
-Wall of Flames: detected
-Wall of Frost: detected
-Wall of Storms: not detected

Conjuration
-Banish Daedra: not detected
-Bound Battleaxe: not detected
-Bound Bow: not detected
-Bound Sword: not detected
-Command Daedra: not detected
-Conjure Boneman: not detected
-Conjure Dremora Lord: not detected
-Conjure Familiar: not detected
-Conjure Flame Atronach: not detected
-Conjure Frost Atronach: not detected
-Conjure Mistman: not detected
-Conjure Storm Atronach: not detected
-Conjure Wrathman: not detected
-Dead Thrall: not detected
-Dread Zombie: not detected
-Expel Daedra: not detected
-Flame Thrall: not detected
-Flaming Familiar: not detected
-Frost Thrall: not detected
-Raise Zombie: not detected
-Reanimate Corpse: not detected
-Revenant: not detected
-Soul Trap: not detected
-Storm Thrall: not detected
-Summin Arniel's Shade: not detected
-Summon Arvak: not detected
-Summon Unbound Dremora: not detected

(continued in next post)
Nanaya27
Posted 11/21/2012 1:48:56 PM

(edited)
Restoration
-Bane of the Undead: detected
-Circle of Protection: detected
-Close Wounds: detected (another I remembered wrong)
-Fast Healing: detected
-Grand Healing: detected
-Greater Ward: detected
-Guardian Circle: detected
-Heal Other: detected
-Heal Undead: untested (I don't have it)
-Healing: detected
-Healing Hands: detected
-Lesser Ward: detected
-Necromantic Healing: detected
-Repel Lesser Undead: detected
-Repel Undead: detected
-Steadfast Ward: detected
-Stendarr's Aura: Detected
-Sun Fire: Detected
-Turn Greater Undead: detected
-Turn Lesser Undead: detected
-Turn Undead: detected
-Vampire's Bane: detected

Other
-Summon Spectral Assassin: not detected

Now some observations:

-no difference between idle and "charging" spells
-No difference between right hand, left had, or both hands.
-No difference when wielding 2 different spells. Will still be detected if either of the spells are listed as "detected"
-A Steel Mace enchanted with Turn Undead was not detected, nor was a simple unenchanted Steel Mace. Bound weapons (the actual weapons, not the spells) were also not detected.
-While invisible, no spell was detected.
-With a few exceptions, results seem to follow spell type perfectly. All summon spells react the same, all frost spells react the same, etc.
-Some spells give a larger penalty to detection than others. When at the edge of the detection for any given spell, the sneak indicator fluctuated between detected and hidden. From experimenting with different distances after the main test was done, I was able to get a general idea of which spells have greater penalties to stealth:

Calm spells = Rally spells = Fire spells =< Paralyze spells < Turn Undead spells < Ward spells = Magic Armor spells = Sunlight spells = Healing spells

Of course I could not test the upper range due to the limited space in available. Wards, Sunlight, Magic Armor and Healing spells were all detected from as far away as I could get while still being in line of sight and avoiding other NPCs.

EDIT: Forgot to say this, but obviously it's possible that the spells that weren't detected still have a penalty to stealth. It would have to be small enough that 100 Skill and a 40% Sneak enchantment negated it though. It's also very likely didn't chose the best NPC or area to test with. An NPC with a higher detection stat and a more open area would have been ideal.
theonyxphoenix
(Topic Creator)
Posted 11/21/2012 2:54:13 PM
Good job on testing that. Sneak is one of the most difficult forumlas to pinpoint and I still don't think we have it 100%.

Now you say you have 100 in sneak and a 40% enchantment which would result in a sneak value greater than 100. A bug exists that can cause points above 100 to act negatively. In this case you would only have a 60 effective sneak skill. Do/did you get the same results without the gloves to ensure that the bug wasn't affecting the results?
Nanaya27
Posted 11/21/2012 3:29:15 PM
theonyxphoenix posted...
Good job on testing that. Sneak is one of the most difficult forumlas to pinpoint and I still don't think we have it 100%.

Now you say you have 100 in sneak and a 40% enchantment which would result in a sneak value greater than 100. A bug exists that can cause points above 100 to act negatively. In this case you would only have a 60 effective sneak skill. Do/did you get the same results without the gloves to ensure that the bug wasn't affecting the results?


I didn't check the spells without the gloves, though I can go back and do that later. What I did do was get to the edge of detection then take the gloves off. Taking them off resulted in me being detected, putting them back on made me hidden again. So it was definitely increasing my sneaking ability.

Anyways, I don't see how that bug could compromise the test. If you're undetected with empty hands, and in the exact same position are detected with ebonyflesh equipped, then whatever your sneaking skill is the spell you equipped still made a difference. It actually would have been a better test if the bug had affected me, since a lower Sneak skill would allow for more exact testing when it came to what distances individual spell types revealed me at. It was a mistake to wear those Fortify Sneak gloves, which I just realized now.
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